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Charles Fischer

Rumblings of Defiance: Vaccination Required to Enter Autzen?

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To me, this is a no-brainer; you must be vaccinated and have proof to enter Autzen. This way everyone is protected, we don't have to wear masks, etc. But in this Twitter thread below, many people disagreed and even stated he/she would stay home and watch if a vaccination is required.

I guess the question is, "if Oregon does not require proof of vaccination, and people have not been vaccinated and subsequently get COVID while at Autzen...can they sue UO when it was their own choice to eschew the vaccine available?"

This is looking to be a thorny national issue, and it is hard to discuss without bringing in politics, but we must avoid anything pertaining to the "P" word.

What are your thoughts about what should be done and where this is going?

 

Beautiful photo of Autzen BTW...

Mr. FishDuck

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All I can say is that the Covid-19 pandemic has raised the vaccination issue to a whole new level. I side with the fact that it is your right to not get vaccinated, but it is not your right to have all the freedoms a civil society has. Societies have norms and if one of those norms is to be vaccinated to enter Autzen, so be it.

Have a well thought out opinion, disagree, agree to disagree, but be part of civil discourse and root for the Ducks.  

I will also state, Charles, you are pushing expectations by inviting discussion on this topic. 

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Sign me up for a vaccine. I plan on getting one regardless.

As far as a requirement to enter Autzen goes, well thats a tough call. I can see where it would irk some people. Same as wearing a mask but more so.

Getting vaccinated is a personal choice for most people unless your job requires it. Attending a game at Autzen is a privilege and not a given right. I'm okay if those in charge want to make vaccines mandatory. Whats the point of having a vaccine to help slow or stop the spread of Covid and then let 50,000 non vaccinated people gather in tight conditions and yelling all over each other? 

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29 minutes ago, Haywarduck said:

I will also state, Charles you are pushing expectations by inviting discussion on this topic. 

Yes, this is going to be hard for people to write without getting political, but if any community can do it--this one can.

So many questions that we all will be dealing with later in all aspects of life; is it fair or right to require a vaccination? 

If millions choose not to, is it fair to make the rest have to wear masks, practice social distancing and have the economic hardship restrictions in place?

Can someone sue for transmission of COVID when he/she choose not to get a vaccination?  (Big impact on Oregon for games, IMHO)

My concern is that whatever the most stringent practice is available....UO will choose it, and tons of people will be hosed in the process.  What Oregon did with photographers at the games this year was flat-out ridiculous...

As a season ticket holder--I have concerns about where this is going!

Fans2_Kevin Cline.jpg

Ah no, this is not me...

Mr. FishDuck

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What if it wasn't "COVID-19" but instead the "Black Plague", would that convince people to get the vaccination and document it ?

Or what if  all these people were walking through your house and breathing all over you and your family, would you want some assurance that they were vaccinated first?

Public health does matter. 

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Autzen stadium is a private facility, pretty simple they can ask for people to be vaccinated.  However, the lines going into Autzen will take that much longer to get in.  😞

As for vaccination being a personal decision, that really isn't correct either.  Since vaccinations really started being distributed in the 1940s, the percentage of people being vaccinated in the US is well over 90%.  In order for kids to go to public school, they must have most vaccinated shots.  School districts do allow some exceptions, but not many.

I work for a hospital (In the pathology department), so I received my first COVID Pfizer vaccination on Tuesday 1/5/21.  My current experience:  If you get the flu shot, the soreness was just a bit more, but lasted about the same length of 48 hours.  I had no other side effects.  Some coworkers had low energy for about 48 hours.  Some got a headache for a few hours afterwards.  Supposedly, the 2nd shot has shown to have more intense side effects.

In my opinion, science doesn't have opinions, it has facts.  However, since science is performed and reviewed by humans, the waters get muddied. 

In my opinion, getting the COVID vaccine was an easy decision.  I understand the risk of potential unknown long term side effects, but we already know about 10% of COVID patients have long term debilitating side effects.  I am willing to believe in the science and the unknown, over the danger of eventually getting COVID and its known side effects.

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In our litigious world we now live in, I would think it would be very hard for the University to open the gates to Autzen to just everyone. There would simply be too many possible reprecussions, both legally and socially to allow them to do that.  As a state run institution, I would also guess they will have to answer to whatever the state mandates they do.  I certainly have no answers, as I see both sides of the vaccination issue.  It would be difficult to allow only vaccinated people and not allow others, yet equally difficult to just let everyone in.

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Let me throw something out there. When I went skydiving I had to sign a waiver to waive my rights for insurance because the potential to die is real. Even though I paid and still pay for insurance those kind of activities are not covered if I chose to risk my life. To me this pandemic is the similar in that the potential to die is there. The difference? One risks other peoples lives. You chose to skydive and die? That's on you. You catch this disease you potentially die but more importantly you potentially kill others.

You get contact traced if you get an STI/STD and your name goes on a list. This situation is very similar.

Finally, if you kill someone it is either murder or manslaughter correct? If one knowingly gives other people covid and they die what does that make one? In this litigious society I am surprised no shark has jumped on that?!

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1 hour ago, Tandaian said:

In my opinion, science doesn't have opinions, it has facts. 

Outstanding post, and I am grateful for your reported experience with the vaccine.

 

59 minutes ago, 47sgs said:

It would be difficult to allow only vaccinated people and not allow others, yet equally difficult to just let everyone in.

Hence the thorny issue gets tougher...another great post for me to ponder.

 

5 minutes ago, criticalduck said:

If one knowingly gives other people covid and they die what does that make one?

And this is why I wanted to bring this up--to see other ramifications I had not considered.  Thanks to all for your responses--very illuminating.

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BTW everyone....you can quote just one sentence or part of a sentence.  Just highlight what you want to respond to and a small box comes up "Quote" and you click it.  Bingo--it appears in  your post.  And obviously...you can do this several times.  Handy and easy!  Learn more in the Directions Topic at the top of the Front page.

Mr. FishDuck

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I think we live in a society that is, sadly, increasingly less willing to make the sacrifices needed for a civil society. It use to be an honor to serve our country, now lip service is about all we see. During WWII the USA sold $185 million worth of war bonds, at below market rate.  Now we just tack on debt, print money, and say we will pay it back. 

The whole vaccine argument is a microcosm of our country not being willing to do the tough things. We can create amazing things, like the vaccine, but to make it work, too many sacrifices. Even right now we see people complaining about those who are getting the vaccine and those who are not. If you don't like helping others stay safe, stay home. Our society functions because people make sacrifices, end of story.

As far as the legal issue Charles spoke of I would love to hear a lawyer take a stab at the legality of blaming somebody of spreading Covid when they also haven't been vaccinated. Do the tough thing, and live with that decision. Again, at what point does personal responsibility start to matter again? 

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Do they hand out vaccination certificates? Will my doctor need to contact the ticket office for me? Vaccination doesn’t guarantee immunity, and some individuals cannot be vaccinated for health reasons. I would think that it would be difficult to require vaccination and then enforce it every game day.

Plus, based upon the rollout of the vaccine, getting the vaccine to those who want it is going to take a long time.
 

 

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Great question. If Covid is crushed before the first game because of the vaccine, then it may not be necessary to even worry about it.  However, if Covid is still lingering, then a vaccine, social distancing or a mask will have to be considered.  It really depends on how fast the vaccine is distributed to the broader public and its effectiveness.  

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1 hour ago, Drake said:

Do they hand out vaccination certificates?

You absolutely will get a vaccination certificate.  Or at least they should be handing them out, I have mine showing my the date of my 1st shot.  

My local hospital is ahead of schedule giving the vaccination out to all hospital employees.  That is encouraging, but most experts are predicting it won't be until late summer where we could get close to have enough people vaccinated to be considered safe.

If they are going to require proof of vaccination, my guess is it will be only for the 2021 season.  There will be those who can't get it for health reasons and those who choose not to get it.  The tediousness of showing proof of vaccination won't be sustainable for more than 1 season.

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1 hour ago, ptdduck said:

Great question. If Covid is crushed before the first game because of the vaccine, then it may not be necessary to even worry about it.  However, if Covid is still lingering, then a vaccine, social distancing or a mask will have to be considered.  It really depends on how fast the vaccine is distributed to the broader public and its effectiveness.  

I think this post is really a great answer to how things will go at Autzen this fall, and as of now, it's completely up in the air.  Hopefully, with 8 months to go and the vaccine rolling out quickly, Covid will  be starting to be in the rear view mirror.

  As far as the vaccine, everyone will have to make their own decision, but from my perspective, I will get it ASAP.  I'm retired from the medical field, and really don't see a big downside.  Our bodies are attacked by antigens continually.  The vaccine is simply an artificially constructed antigen simulating a Covid antigen attack.  The vaccines potential long term negative effects are certainly far less than the potential 10% from the real disease.  With a projected 90% efficiency, it appears as a win-win.

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I am hoping that the UO will allow people with a vaccine certificate attend the Spring Game. I would say THAT should be mandatory if they let anyone in.

For the fall, It depends on how the vaccinations go. If everyone who wants it, has it, then let everyone in... unless almost no one wants it.

The most important issue is not how many people are vaccinated, but rather how much is the virus spreading. If COVID is not spreading any worse than the flu, (and we never kept anyone out during flu season), then why require proof of vaccination?? 

Right now, Oregon is diagnosing about 1000 new cases a day. That's more than 3 times what it was in the summer. The more people are vaccinated, the lower that number will be. Sooner or later it will be time to just open everything up, including large gatherings in indoor arenas.

 

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32 minutes ago, Jon Sousa said:

The most important issue is not how many people are vaccinated, but rather how much is the virus spreading. If COVID is not spreading any worse than the flu, (and we never kept anyone out during flu season), then why require proof of vaccination??

I believe that COVID has killed about 10 times as many people as the flu usually does in a year, so that would be one good reason to require proof of vaccination IMHO.

 

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On 1/11/2021 at 2:47 PM, Annie said:

I believe that COVID has killed about 10 times as many people as the flu usually does in a year, so that would be one good reason to require proof of vaccination IMHO.

This is what the CDC says about flu: CDC estimates that influenza has resulted in between 9 million – 45 million illnesses, between 140,000 – 810,000 hospitalizations and between 12,000 – 61,000 deaths annually since 2010.

This is what the CDC says about flu: Half (51.8%) of persons six months and older were vaccinated during the 2019–20 season.

So, let's not compare apples and oranges. How many people would have died of COVID if half of the population was vaccinated for it before COVID started spreading?

My Point: The flu is extremely deadly IN SPITE OF half the population being vaccinated and we don't take any precautions regarding stadium entrance. Once new COVID cases are down to about the normal flu caseload, the number of people dying from COVID is unlikely to be any higher than that of the flu... ESPECIALLY if half the population gets the vaccination.

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10 minutes ago, Jon Sousa said:

My Point: The flu is extremely deadly IN SPITE OF half the population being vaccinated and we don't take any precautions regarding stadium entrance. Once new COVID cases are down to about the normal flu caseload, the number of people dying from COVID is unlikely to be any higher than that of the flu... ESPECIALLY if half the population gets the vaccination.

I am very grateful to all the views and all the information presented in this thread. And Jon--that is helpful for so many of us to be aware of.  THANKS.

Mr. FishDuck

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Quote

My Point: The flu is extremely deadly IN SPITE OF half the population being vaccinated and we don't take any precautions regarding stadium entrance. Once new COVID cases are down to about the normal flu caseload, the number of people dying from COVID is unlikely to be any higher than that of the flu... ESPECIALLY if half the population gets the vaccination.

I'm sorry but from my perspective, I think comparing Covid to Influenza A isn't reasonable.  Regarding the influenza vaccine, it's incredibly ineffective and is based on a guestimate of what strains will be prevalent that year  In a given year, we have 9-45 M influenza cases, up to 500,00 hospitalizations, and 12-60,000 deaths, with the majority of those being end of life infections.  In less than a year, we've had 22 million Covid cases, 370,000 deaths, 3rd leading cause of deaths for 45-85 yo citizens, and 2nd leading cause of death for people over 85 with most professionals suggesting it's under reported in that age group. 

While I'm  retired, colleagues have kept me up to date regarding local hospitals cases, and Covid is not something to take lightly, especially in an aged population like many on this forum.  Both illnesses affect end of life and medically compromised patients most severely, but Covid is significantly more deadly and significantly more contagious with a significant percentage of long term after effects.  It remains to be seen what the dynamics will look like once a large portion of the population is vaccinated, and what the time frame is for immunity from that vaccine. 

As far as how it is handled for the next football season, at this point I  see it as completely up in the air based on accessibility to vaccination, compliance to being vaccinated, seasonal infection rate, unknown longevity of immunity, and what the state will allow at that point in time.  So far, our state has been more cautious than most.

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Honestly, I think it's still too far away to have a reasonable guess about it.

And for me, SADLY, all academic since the closest football stadium I can go watch PAC 12 games in is the Rose Bowl.

Sad violin music.

Anyway, I really think we are just too close to the beginning of the roll-out to know.

IF the vaccinations proceed like the politicians and health officials have promised and want them to, we may get to a sufficient level of general immunity so that proof isn't required by early Fall. Maybe you have to sign a waiver going in that you won't sue if you contract the virus. That also assuming that the state and county governments have signed off on normal gatherings by that point.

More likely in my opinion, unfortunately, is that we will NOT have reached that general level of immunity by that point, due to slow roll outs and typical issues in undertaking a massive, brand-new effort combined with bureaucracy.

It may very well be that the government and health officials do not feel the general population has reached herd immunity until late Fall or even Winter.

In that case, full stadiums may not even be an option.

If they are, they may require some combination of social distancing and vaccination records, required by the govt. even if the school does not. But the school would probably require them also.

So that is my guess.

Option 1 - most likely IMO - some combination of vaccination proof / distancing to go to live games.

Option 2 - less likely because money talks - no fans for one more football season, but games go on the regular schedule at least.

Option 3 - our dream, but unlikely - back to normal, no proof needed and full stadium.

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And as a PS when I go back up to look at Charles' original question, my guess is that IF football gatherings were allowed by the state/county, there would be no liability to the University as long as they followed public health guidelines.

Maybe a waiver of some sort would be included with the purchase of tickets.

I am not a lawyer though.

What I don't see is the government allowing huge gatherings without some sort of rules in place, which would essentially let the organization off the hook for liability. But might delay when things open up again.

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To sue UO for negligence one would have to prove that UO created a foreseeable risk of harm and failed to act reasonably to prevent that risk. There are also defenses that would apply, such as contributory negligence and “unclean hands.” If a plaintiff’s own negligence contributed more than 50% to the injury they’d be barred from recovering any damages. So I’d say a non-vaccinated fan who contracted Covid at Autzen would have a hard time recovering anything from UO under these circumstances. I know I wouldn’t take the case.

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9 minutes ago, DuckPhan19 said:

So I’d say a non-vaccinated fan who contracted Covid at Autzen would have a hard time recovering anything from UO under these circumstances.

That is GREAT to hear from an attorney, so THANK YOU for the informed post.

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                                              Whew!

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Mr. FishDuck

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