Jump to content
Charles Fischer

Who Has the MOST 4- & 5-Star Talent in Pac-12?

Recommended Posts

Not USC!

 

 

Mr. FishDuck

Link to post
Share on other sites

Which really points out just how well Wazzu, Cal, Utah, and Oregon State are coached - competitive teams without the same level of talent.

 

And how poorly USC and Washington have been coached - #2 and #3 in the conference in talent and both had awful results.  New coaches now, so who knows for the future, but both Lake and Helton took chicken salad and turned it into...you know the rest.

 

Unfortunately, it also says something about the coaching for OBD - clearly #1 in talent but not in results.  With the Ducks, you can at least point to how extraordinarily young all that talent was over the last year or two, but even so...

  • Thumbs Up 8
Link to post
Share on other sites

Kurt Rambis, great point about coaching or lack of coaching. 

 

Sir Charles, thanks for posting these numbers. On field results prove that some PAC teams are doing more with less.

 

Since the end of the disastrous Alamo Bowl against TCU, the Oregon coaching staffs have underperformed. First, Helfrich in recruiting and social technology. He and his staff could coach lesser talent to great levels of achievement. They simply did more with less.......but recruiting poorly and created no depth.

 

Then the snake and he who mastered useless coach speak started filling the locker room with talent. They brought in 5☆and top 150 talent. (Remember it wasnt that long ago that we couldnt bring in top 300 talent) But their player development skills and in game management adjustments were lacking. 

 

They truly did less with more quality talent. (In fairness to the snake, he kept his foot on the offensive throttle and scored points.) The offense wasnt broke so he didnt try to fix it. Unlike MC..........

 

The PAC is so soft that the talent at Oregon could win championchips and go to a few New Years 6 bowls. Inspite of the lack of development and lack of in game management skills.

 

So here the Ducks roster sits with the most 4 and 5 stars in the PAC. Can Coach Lanning and his staff further develope this talented roster? Do the players want to be coached and developed? Can this staff build game plans and make adjustments to beat teams with lesser talent?

 

Can this coaching staff and players aspire to put in the work and effort to become National Champuons?

 

The opportunity is before them, will they meet that opportunity with preparedness?

  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Mario did exactly what needed to be done at Oregon......changed the roster from a ton of 3 stars with a couple 4 mixed in to........mostly 4 star with a couple 5 star and 3 star mixed in. He is owed his due from Oregon fans. 

Helton at USC did the opposite........received a team mostly 4/5 star with a 3 star being rare and changed it to mostly 4 star with quite a few 3 star mixed in. 

 

Oregon has the best raw talent in the Pac 12 without doubt. 

For Lanning its a great opportunity......and since Oregon could use some help on the defensive lines.......as a defensive guru.......he is a perfect hire......IMO. 

Can't wait for the season!

  • Thumbs Up 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

On 4/17/2022 at 7:41 AM, Kurt Rambis said:

Which really points out just how well Wazzu, Cal, Utah, and Oregon State are coached - competitive teams without the same level of talent.

Very good point. Petersen did a good job at UW, but it burnt him out. Since Don James, there have been 7 head coaches, they compiled a "historic" record of 191-155-1, .551%.

Link to post
Share on other sites

On 4/17/2022 at 6:41 AM, Charles Fischer said:

Not USC!

 

 

Wonder what are the other leagues like and how do we stack up?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Speaking of potential untapped talent- Micah Williams posted  9.83 100M time. The run was slightly wind aided, however the 7th fastest collegiate  time EVER. Imagine the possibilities of that speed as a duck receiver.

 

I don’t care if Micah has hands of stone, a three step 60 yard pass and he would be the only one under it. Waiting.

  • Thumbs Up 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

A coach also has to put the talent on the field and put it in space to see it excel. Our previous staff had too much talent sitting on the bench, and then often running between tackles, with a qb who couldn't hit a downfield target. We should all be excited to see high level talent matched up with high level coaching. That is the match we all want to see.

 

We are, once again, hearing what we fans want to hear, explosion plays, players in space, lots of scoring, but now we need to see it happen. Talk is cheap, let's see it happen, once again! It is an interesting stat, but I want to see the scoreboard light up again!

  • Thanks 1
  • Thumbs Up 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

Speaking of untapped potential, at the same meet that Micah ran 9.83  there was a high school kid from Washington DC named Nyckoles Harbor.  He ran 10.2 something.  He is 6-5 and 225 lbs 5 star athlete.  Bright kid with a ton of potential in both track and football.  He plans on doing both in college.  I'm hoping we can get him out for a visit to Hayward and Autzen as I would think we would have a pretty good shot at him once he visited.  If you are serious about track how can you not consider coming to Eugene, right?

  • Thumbs Up 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

On 4/17/2022 at 1:29 PM, fred flintstone said:

Mario did exactly what needed to be done at Oregon......changed the roster from a ton of 3 stars with a couple 4 mixed in to........mostly 4 star with a couple 5 star and 3 star mixed in. He is owed his due from Oregon fans. 

Helton at USC did the opposite........received a team mostly 4/5 star with a 3 star being rare and changed it to mostly 4 star with quite a few 3 star mixed in. 

 

Oregon has the best raw talent in the Pac 12 without doubt. 

For Lanning its a great opportunity......and since Oregon could use some help on the defensive lines.......as a defensive guru.......he is a perfect hire......IMO. 

Can't wait for the season!

I respectfully disagree. A final 4 berth was there in 2019 but for an awful loss at ASU. And the QB coaching of Justin Herbert was pathetic.

 

The Rose Bowl win was nice but it was a 1 point win against a 3L team with the NFL rookie of the year leading the O.

 

Won the COVID-CONFERENCE title in 2020 with a 4-3 record. This team was exposed in the Fiesta Bowl by Iowa State.

 

Great win at tOSU in 2021 and then the team continually played down to the level of the opponent; completely no-showed twice vs Utah. The team was competitive in the 2nd half of the Alamo Bowl after team was trucked and the game was lost in the 1st half. 

 

The 2021 team came in with the 12th best roster ranking in the nation. Played up to this ranking in Columbus and kind of, in LA vs UCLA. 

 

Cristobal is a recruiting champ and a coaching chump. Make every excuse in the book but the man's record as an HC is 62-60.

 

It does not good to have all the best ingredients in the kitchen and a chef who can't cook.

 

Was Mario better than Helton? Yes. Who isn't a better P5 coach than Helton?

 

IMO, Mario way under-achieved in Eugene. 

  • Thanks 1
  • Thumbs Up 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

On 4/19/2022 at 7:03 AM, Duck 1972 said:

Wonder what are the other leagues like and how do we stack up?

Against the SEC, the Pac-12 does not stack up; doesn't come close.

Link to post
Share on other sites

On 4/19/2022 at 4:03 AM, Duck 1972 said:

Wonder what are the other leagues like and how do we stack up?

Not researching it…but, as an educated guess, I think teams that recruit in the top 5 consistently like an Alabama, Georgia, and tOSU have to be closer to 60 to 70. 
 

Currently, the Ducks are well above the average on a national basis. 

 

102760.png
247SPORTS.COM

In order to create the most comprehensive Team Recruiting Ranking without any notion of bias, 247Sports Team Recruiting...

 

  • Thumbs Up 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

On 4/19/2022 at 10:12 AM, Drake said:

Not researching it…but, as an educated guess, I think teams that recruit in the top 5 consistently like an Alabama, Georgia, and tOSU have to be closer to 60 to 70. 
 

Currently, the Ducks are well above the average on a national basis. 

 

102760.png
247SPORTS.COM

In order to create the most comprehensive Team Recruiting Ranking without any notion of bias, 247Sports Team Recruiting...

 

Great link, thanks. It is interesting Texas has more 5* and 4*, same number of recruits but ranks below Oregon.

 

I suppose the analysts understands just how much the Texas recruits will underperform? This is the only thing I can come up with.

 

Also if you click on Texas A&M it will give you the total cost of their recruits, ;).

Link to post
Share on other sites

Looking at that link, #9 USC, #17UW, #24UCLA, #25Stanford and #26ASU are all underperforming.  #32 Utah is out performing their class talent.

  • Thumbs Up 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

That would be a nice feature if they gave you the NIL cost of the recruits!  🙂

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

On 4/19/2022 at 2:19 PM, Haywarduck said:

Great link, thanks. It is interesting Texas has more 5* and 4*, same number of recruits but ranks below Oregon.

 

I suppose the analysts understands just how much the Texas recruits will underperform? This is the only thing I can come up with.

 

Also if you click on Texas A&M it will give you the total cost of their recruits, ;).

Yet, the ESPN FPI has Texas ranked No. 6 and Auburn No, 10. GIGO?

Link to post
Share on other sites

On 4/19/2022 at 9:38 AM, Jon Joseph said:

Who isn't a better P5 coach than Helton?

Jimmy Lake wasn't. He looked to be completely over his head.

Link to post
Share on other sites

On 4/19/2022 at 2:58 PM, Tandaian said:

Looking at that link, #9 USC, #17UW, #24UCLA, #25Stanford and #26ASU are all underperforming.  #32 Utah is out performing their class talent.

So much of this depends on the last group of recruiting classes. Utah will never be 'up there' when it comes to recruiting. Will never have a BCR. (See below.)

 

I expect the combined roster rankings that come out after 'fall practice' will not vary too much at the top but there will be a lot of sorting out from 11-25.

 

In 2022, Oregon will again have a Blue Chip Ratio (BCR) roster; 50%+ of the roster made up of 4 and 5* recruits. No team that came into a season without BCR roster won a BCS title, or has won a Playoff title to date.

Edited by Jon Joseph
Link to post
Share on other sites

On 4/19/2022 at 7:19 PM, Haywarduck said:

It is interesting Texas has more 5* and 4*, same number of recruits but ranks below Oregon.

 

I suppose the analysts understands just how much the Texas recruits will underperform? This is the only thing I can come up with.

 

The "average" is how each team is ranked, not just the "star" rating.  Recruiting services usually give a numeric rating; in this case it seems to be on a 100-point scale.  Anything above a certain number is 5 stars.  Oregon and Texas might have the same number of five star players, but Oregon's players average 90.6, while Texas' players average 90.13.

 

So when rated based on stars, TX actually looks slightly better.  When they use the exact numeric ratings for each player, Oregon looks slightly better.

Link to post
Share on other sites

On 4/19/2022 at 3:54 PM, 30Duck said:

Jimmy Lake wasn't. He looked to be completely over his head.

As head coaches, I think both need an XXX long snorkel in order to take a breath?

Link to post
Share on other sites

On 4/19/2022 at 12:59 PM, Jon Joseph said:

As head coaches, I think both need an XXX long snorkel in order to take a breath?

We'll see how Helton does at Georgia Southern, haven't heard of a new landing spot for Lake. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

On 4/19/2022 at 4:02 PM, 30Duck said:

We'll see how Helton does at Georgia Southern, haven't heard of a new landing spot for Lake. 

Helton is back in the G5 where he belongs and may do OK?

Link to post
Share on other sites

On 4/19/2022 at 9:38 AM, Jon Joseph said:

Cristobal is a recruiting champ and a coaching chump.

While I agree with this statement.... one must remember that a Head Coach is responsible for both coaching and recruiting. So while you have the right to be highly critical of his coaching (most all of us would agree). I would think you could agree that he left the program/roster in better shape than he inherited it. I believe roster change was what Flintstone was referring to.

Link to post
Share on other sites

On 4/19/2022 at 4:10 PM, DUCati855 said:

While I agree with this statement.... one must remember that a Head Coach is responsible for both coaching and recruiting. So while you have the right to be highly critical of his coaching (most all of us would agree). I would think you could agree that he left the program/roster in better shape than he inherited it. I believe roster change was what Flintstone was referring to.

Thank you + spot on regarding a by the numbers better roster.

 

Ranking-wise he indeed left a better roster. But getting these better guys ready to play? 

 

I have zero complaint with Mario's recruiting efforts. My beef is how he failed to coach guys up and also played small ball down to the level of the competition.

 

He inherited a talent like Justin Herbert and buried him in an antiquated offense.

 

He was the OL coach at ALABAMA. He won the award for being top assistant recruiting coach in CFB at Alabama. Yet, he came to Oregon as an assistant coach under Slick? I do not not know for certain but I would be surprised to learn that he received a significant salary bump when he left the SEC for the Pac-12?

 

Apparently, Saint Nick was happy with the recruiting effort but not the coaching effort? If he had wanted Mario to stay at Bama he certainly could have afforded to pay Mario to stay at Bama.

 

Nick knew he had to bring the Bama O forward to playing playing 'modern football.' In this regard, Mario was most likely not a good fit.

 

Mario made less than a lateral move to Oregon and I cannot help but think that Nick knew that he was no longer a fit at Bama and perhaps, urged him to move on? And I very much doubt that Mario made this move in anticipation of Slick leaving after a single season?

 

Can't criticize the players supporting Mario to be the new head coach. But as Charles courageously at the time pointed out, what he represented to Mullens and the public at large at the time of his upgrade to HC was far different from what we witnessed on the field of play.

 

Most striking to me? The number of Ducks players today who now voice that football is fun again. As it should be.

 

62-60. As Bill Parcells' famously noted, your record is what you are.

  • Thumbs Up 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

On 4/19/2022 at 3:48 PM, Jon Joseph said:

I have zero complaint with Mario's recruiting efforts. My beef is how he failed to coach guys up and also played small ball down to the level of the competition.

Agreed! I feel much more confident that DL (and staff) will have the Ducks coached up and thriving to learn. 

If he can keep the recruiting on par with Mario... the sky's the limit!

  • Thumbs Up 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

On 4/19/2022 at 9:38 AM, Jon Joseph said:

I respectfully disagree.

I would actually agree with @fred flintstone focusing narrowly on his point about recruiting. Growing up, I never imagined that I would be saying I agreed with Fred Flintstone in a serious context 😄

 

I will grant you the criticisms of the on-field performance and talent development, but there is something to be said for definitively showing that Oregon truly can recruit with the big boys, and not just in a fluke year. Taggart never signed a full class, as far as I can remember, since he was gone before the verbal commits could actually sign in his one full season.

 

MC showed that it could be done on a consistent basis. My sense is that Oregon was blessed with some excellent coaches over the last few decades, but there was always that sense of "Yes, but..."

 

Yes, we have a great coach and great players who we love and root for, but we'll always be thrilled with getting some four stars and and occasional five star. Yes we hang tough, but we are destined to be the overachieving team of journeymen when compared to the true blue bloods of CFB.

 

MC may not have raised the bar in terms of coaching the games, but he definitely raised it in terms of recruiting. And I think that is a culture shift that can really propel the program to the next level, if it's combined with better in-game coaching. I am sure that all the fans on this forum are hoping that is the case going forward, just as I am 😄

 

*edited to add*

 

I think the previous two posts more or less are in exact agreement with what I put here, so I add this in support of that sentiment.

 

Edited by Viking Duck
Link to post
Share on other sites

Guest Axel
On 4/19/2022 at 3:48 PM, Jon Joseph said:

Most striking to me? The number of Ducks players today who now voice that football is fun again. As it should be.

 

62-60. As Bill Parcells' famously noted, your record is what you are.

Jon, great analysis on your Mario Cristobal posts. Agree 1,000 percent. 

 

Yes, Cristobal did a fine job recruiting, but my favorite thing that he did at Oregon was board that airplane bound for Miami.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.



×
×
  • Create New...
Top