Maebee No. 1 Share Posted June 10, 2022 Canzano: Take a hard pass on LIV Golf at Pumpkin Ridge EMAIL.MG-D0.SUBSTACK.COM First event on American soil looms. They pick the Portland area for the first stop; what could go wrong? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrathis No. 2 Share Posted June 10, 2022 Whew, it's gonna be hard (in my opinion) to discuss this without it going political in a hurry. It would seem if you are against the LIV then xenophobia would be the accusation of choice, and if you're in favor of it then greedy capitalist might be in order. The more moderate take on this might be that you can recognize the horrid human rights history of Saudi Arabia, but support competition in the marketplace and that a change in traditions might end up being a good thing. Allowing free people to make their own decisions about their employment though seems 100% inarguable and something we should all be able to get behind... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tandaian No. 3 Share Posted June 10, 2022 No person, organizations or country can be on their high horse, for they have their own mistakes from the past. PGA doesn't exactly have a great track record of always doing the right thing. I get the Saudi backing is a terrible look for LIV, but the PGA has been living as the only game in town. This hopefully is a wake up call for them to make some changes in their own house. 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drake Moderator No. 4 Share Posted June 10, 2022 With the majors, The Masters, USGA (US Open), The PGA Championship, and the R&A (The Open Championship) most of the top players in the world will stay with the PGA. The LIV tour maybe more like a venue for the +40 crowd and lower ranked players to make some money. To me, it’s like the USFL, good players that are competing, but I am just not interested in following the league. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrJacksPlaidPants Moderator No. 5 Share Posted June 10, 2022 (edited) If you look at it from an economic standpoint LIV golf stands a good chance of competing pretty well with the PGA. I say this for a number of reasons listed below. 1. Money talks. LIV is guaranteeing contracts like every other pro sports league. No need to earn their way into the league. No need to keep their tour card. Right now they’re targeting established players, but they will attract a lot of youth with their guaranteed $$$. 2. The PGA has been notoriously cheap with their payouts. No guaranteed money. Pay your own way to the event. I could go on. 3. LIV can attract the youth. If they target hot, young up-and-comer’s (I.e. recruit the amateurs) with good money then they control the future of the game. They have the right guy with the right plan in Greg Norman. He may have missed on Tiger Woods, but everybody knows he offered him “high nine figures” to join. I promise you that number didn’t go un-noticed by other PGA tour members. 4. The PGA Tour doesn’t own the majors, so they can’t stop these golfers from competing in them. There is still a chance for glory among the LIV golfers. That is, unless the USGA prohibits them. Very unlikely. 5. The PGA looks churlish with their hard line stance against these player. It’s not a good look for them and being greedy doesn’t help them. They look like the NFL owners. Just imagine if a new pro football league started and offered guaranteed contracts to the NFL players to jump ship and join them. There would be a mass exodus. Unlike the USFL, the KSA has the money to sustain their salary and operations as long as the oil still flows. Hopefully, this new LIV tournament opens the eyes of the PGA tour because their “loyal” players also have one eye on LIV. You can bet on that. If you think loyalty is still a thing you need only look at college football. Edited June 10, 2022 by DrJacksPlaidPants 1 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanLduck No. 6 Share Posted June 10, 2022 I don't understand why human right violations by Saudi Arabia are worse than China's. Or even our own. The NBA and most all others do lots of business with them and we still watch and follow our favorite teams. To be so high and mighty about this seems a bit childish and maybe an attempt to be "woke". The PGA's stance sounds like my kids fighting when they were 7 years old! "Fine, you can't play with my toys then"! 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Fischer Administrator No. 7 Share Posted June 10, 2022 On 6/10/2022 at 2:45 PM, DanLduck said: Or even our own. As nations...none of us wear halos. On 6/10/2022 at 2:45 PM, DanLduck said: maybe an attempt to be "woke". Some efforts at being "woke" has some public benefit, while some other "woke" efforts might be objectionable. Bottom line....let's not go there on this site! Drives me crazy trying to figure it all out! Mr. FishDuck Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
2002duck No. 8 Share Posted June 10, 2022 If LIV Golf was banking on people caring less and less about Saudi Arabia's role in their tour over time, count me in as that demographic. The tour is on its first event, and I have moved on. I'm not necessarily hoping LIV Golf survives for many years, I just hope it sparks big changes in the PGA, such as guaranteed money per event, paid airfare and lodging, better (player-friendly) refereeing on the course, and more access given to players to market themselves if the PGA won't do it for them. Until then, I hope LIV prospers. Also, LIV has three of my top-5 favorite players on their tour. Wake up PGA! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duckdude No. 9 Share Posted June 10, 2022 PGA made these guys millionaires. If for no other reason for that, they should honor it, and it’s history, with the respect it deserves………I.e. protect it…..Don’t put it in peril. Just my humble opinion. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
47sgs No. 10 Share Posted June 11, 2022 Golf is a unique sport in that, with just a few exceptions, you only get money if you compete well. There are just a few appearance payouts, and more is made from endorsements for the most prolific players than prize money. Compare this to an NFL quarterback, or an pro basketball star. When Phill Mickelson initially talked about the LIV tour, his goal was to use it to pressure the PGA tour to stop being so cheap, and pay the players more. He got so much backlash about the human rights issues and the LIV tour that he lost most of his sponsors and he went into hiding. Because that went nowhere, he resurfaced, $200M richer, and signed on with LIV. It's disappointing that the PGA hasn't made a better effort to take care of their players. While it's helped make a select few quite wealthy, mostly through endorsements, it hasn't even come close to other professional sports at taking care of it's players financially. The new LIV tour I see as a serious threat to professional golf. More and more will sign on with them, field on both tours will be divided, weakening the PGA fields. As far as the four majors, it's not known yet how they will respond . All have a long history with the PGA, and the talk seems to be they won't hang the PGA out to dry. The USGA is the only one to comment so far, and they are saying those that are already qualified for next weeks US Open will be allowed to play. The other 3 haven't commented. The LIV wants their tournaments to be qualifying events, but that will go against the PGA, who again, have a long history with the 4 major tournaments. Right now, professional golf is becoming a giant mess, and the PGA, through some of their own mistakes, aren't in a good position to deal with it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrJacksPlaidPants Moderator No. 11 Share Posted June 11, 2022 There are a ton of great points on this forum, but here’s another opinion from me: I think the PGA’s tradition is right up there with the NCAA’s tradition. Meaning, the sports world has evolved and they had better catch up. I don’t see the majors immediately siding with the PGA tour. They’re smart to play the waiting game. It’s in their best interest to have ALL of the top players in the world at their tournaments. Anything less would be a watered down version of their past greatness. One thing that hasn’t been brought up is television revenue. I would look for a media company like Fox to jump on LIV. They have a history of taking chances, so this is right up their alley. If LIV gets a television deal then we’ll see the PGA start to make some changes. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haywarduck Moderator No. 12 Share Posted June 11, 2022 This article is a minefield of subjects and topics which can only lead to violations of rules. I suppose it is a nice test of our ability to stay on topic, oh yea the Ducks. Go Ducks! I for one love the fact players don't make money unless they make the cut, love that element of the PGA. The rest of the beefs the multi-millionaire golfers have, not sure I want to spend the time understanding or feeling any compassion for. My two cents. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
47sgs No. 13 Share Posted June 11, 2022 On 6/11/2022 at 6:17 AM, Haywarduck said: I for one love the fact players don't make money unless they make the cut, love that element of the PGA. The rest of the beefs the multi-millionaire golfers have, not sure I want to spend the time understanding or feeling any compassion for. My two cents. I've also always liked that they must earn their money by being competative as well. Golf is a high participation sport, and is highly watched for entertainment. Is it right that a pro football, basketball, or baseball player hauls in a boatload of money whether he plays, is injured, is a backup, or isn't the best player playing? Golfers work at least as hard, if not much harder, to perfect their talent. Most put in a full day of practice almost every day. Yet they get nothing unless they perform well each week. Shouldn't the playing field be a little more level for them when compared to athletes in other sports? But I also don't have an answer how the PGA could or should deal with this. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haywarduck Moderator No. 14 Share Posted June 11, 2022 On 6/11/2022 at 8:23 AM, 47sgs said: I've also always liked that they must earn their money by being competative as well. Golf is a high participation sport, and is highly watched for entertainment. Is it right that a pro football, basketball, or baseball player hauls in a boatload of money whether he plays, is injured, is a backup, or isn't the best player playing? Golfers work at least as hard, if not much harder, to perfect their talent. Most put in a full day of practice almost every day. Yet they get nothing unless they perform well each week. Shouldn't the playing field be a little more level for them when compared to athletes in other sports? But I also don't have an answer how the PGA could or should deal with this. Maybe I am going down a rabbit hole, but why should all sports be the same, fair. Life isn't fair and at least they play with a round ball. Talk about unfair, try playing with an oblong ball on a golf course. Another thing which isn't fair, if your 7' tall or over you have a 1-6 chance of playing professional basketball. The game is a freak show, if you ask me. There are some great athletes, but then you have some guys who just get a check because they are extremely tall, with long arms. The playing field is never level, ever. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnotherOD No. 15 Share Posted June 11, 2022 (edited) Yahoo sports came out with an article Tuesday suggesting if Phil gets his LIV payout, his career earnings will reach: 1.1 billion (Making him the 4th professional athlete to become a billionaire from their sport) In his roughly 30 years as a pro, the article reports Phil has earned a pretty staggering $830 million dollars in earnings OFF the course earnings: endorsements, corporate sponsorships, commercials, golf course design, made for TV events, and so on. His actual income from prize money is about $95 million, which still is great bank. There probably are a few things that the PGA could do better but these guys still are playing golf for a living after all -- and actually probably only on the course playing competitively (for about four hours a day) 100 days a year. No 280 pound DEs laying Justin Thomas on the turf after a tee shot either. They have to practice too? I wish 2/3 of my work week per year was "practicing golf". Phil and Dustin Johnson probably aren't the best guys to be complaining about it. Huge celebrities that lead lavish dollar soaked lives. As mentioned already in this thread, these start ups mostly are attempting to take away as big a share as possible from the entity that brought them prosperity -- an entity that has built itself up over time so that all someone has to do is show up and walk on the course and be talented no other work required (and that isn't to say I'm crying for that side either). Retail salesman, nurse and home healthcare workers, office clerks, cashiers, customer service reps, freight loaders and carriers, janitors, operations managers all are among the ten occupations employing the most people in the US, often 8+ hours a day, 230 to 250 days a year, typically with deadlines and a boss over their shoulder, for tiny fractions compared to what these guys often make in five days. A golfer can make double what many of these people do for a year's labor for wearing a hat and a logo on a shirt, and never winning a thing, and they want to talk to those same working people about how bad they have got it. I just must be getting old because I have a hard time getting too worked up. When will a guy finally step up and say "It's a ton of easy money and I'm blessed to have the opportunity and I'm gonna take it", that would be awesome. Edited June 11, 2022 by AnotherOD 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
47sgs No. 16 Share Posted June 12, 2022 On 6/11/2022 at 4:27 PM, AnotherOD said: When will a guy finally step up and say "It's a ton of easy money and I'm blessed to have the opportunity and I'm gonna take it", that would be awesome. I think McIlroy, Thomas and Rahm have pretty much said exactly that, without the easy part. The easy part only works for Woods and Nicklaus. Mickelsons main complaint was the PGA Tour making huge sums of money off the players back , not returning enough of it to the players. LIV shows up with giant sums of money, offering to pay large amounts over 2-3 years for only 8 tournaments a year, which is more than many of them have made in their total career prize money. I could see how it would be hard for many of the middle of the road and older pros to turn that down. I'm sure there will be more defectors as time goes on. Tough times for professional golf. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnotherOD No. 17 Share Posted June 12, 2022 (edited) Well, obviously we see athletes in all professional sports wanting guaranteed money; and, why not? Phil and DJ can show up out of shape, skip practice, party all week, shoot 80, and make $150 million to $200 million for working 50 days out of the year for a couple years, why not? You not only don't have to win, you don't even have to play well. PGA guys do make something in the majors if they miss the cut (like $10,000). For the Masters, for example, the winner gets $2.7 million, $1.6 million to second, $1.02 million to 3rd, all the way down to $37,800 to 50th place. Again, not for a season, for 5-6 days and about 25 hours of work (and that is if you consider playing a round of golf work). That isn't to mention just about any golfer who carries a PGA card will have a minimum of 3 to 5 corporate sponsors: shirt, hat, clubs, golf ball, which provides a nice chunk of change for very little obligation. The PGA is now paying millions per year to guys for participating in golf related social media, the Player Impact Program, of which Phil took out a $6 million dollar payout in its first year. Not even golf, the power of the product built underneath it that allows successful players to walk in the door and cash checks. In the case of Phil, a guy who has won 3 tournaments in the last 9 years. It isn't about protecting owners or businesses at the expense of their workers; and, I am sure there is a fair argument out there to be made the players' current share might be out-of-balance; but, generally major sports are long term enterprises that produce a product for profit and sustainability. Much of today's success is built on the history of the game. It easy if you are an enterprise that can stuff $5 to $10 billion down the tubes, lose it all if it fails, and go out a couple years later for a beer and laugh about it, but that isn't the PGA, the NBA, the NFL, MLB. Which is sort of the point many people seem to be making, it isn't golf they are trying to be successful at, they are trying to buy goodwill, or positive press, or invest in having a more positive profile on the world stage, or something such (it's been called "sportswashing" bad press), not actually making a profitable business that produces a product that people really enjoy and support. The rules are different if your business model is whatever you want it to be it doesn't matter because you have the ability to pump more natural resources out of the ground to cover all losses (and what else can you do when your garage won't hold a 21st McLaren Speedtail or Bugatti Veyron). Edited June 12, 2022 by AnotherOD Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flaps2 No. 18 Share Posted June 12, 2022 If LIV offered Canzano $25 million guaranteed to write positive reviews of their tour, you think he would say no? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flaps2 No. 19 Share Posted June 12, 2022 On 6/10/2022 at 5:04 PM, Duckdude said: PGA made these guys millionaires. If for no other reason for that, they should honor it, and it’s history, with the respect it deserves………I.e. protect it…..Don’t put it in peril. Just my humble opinion. The PGA operates as a non-profit for taxes. Once they learned of LIV's plans, they leaked all the Phil info to Alan Shipnuck who is very well connected with the PGA Executives. They knew their business monopoly was going to be threatened. LIV is offering $2 million guaranteed for last place. The PGA doesn’t give anything because they are not allowed to because of their tax status. Easy choice when thinking of what's best for your family’s future. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Washington Waddler Moderator No. 20 Share Posted June 12, 2022 The great mystery is what have the Saudis really bought? Only time will tell. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven A Moderator No. 21 Share Posted June 12, 2022 On 6/12/2022 at 1:02 AM, Flaps2 said: If LIV offered Canzano $25 million guaranteed to write positive reviews of their tour, you think he would say no? YES. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
