Training Wheels

[Sherman]

1st time on the new forum.
Pretty cool.
So, watching the Ducks this truncated & frustrating season, I’ve been struck by how inept the overall play is.
We KNOW that the talent is there, but it’s not being truly utilized or presented on the field. And I’ve wondered about that.

Ive kinda tangentially touched on this before:::: Chip/Helfrich truly were innovative minds. But aside from their revolutionary (at the time) concepts with health science (individual smoothies, metabolic tracking, etc...), game management and hurry up play...... 2 things really stand out to me:::

1. They developed a fully integrated plan of attack. A SYSTEM. It wasn’t just test-the-edges so we can gash you up the middle. And it wasn’t just about speed, although at that time (no longer currently) we were among the fastest teams in the country.
Chip/Helfrich had a SYSTEM that was so efficient, so well thought out that they had an answer for every defensive alignment. Doesn’t anyone remember how outright deadly the Ducks were in the 3rd quarter after spending halftime making adjustments? That’s what a SYSTEM based on lethal simplicity affords you - The defense does this/We counter with that.
If WE know the answers to every question, then running over/around/thru the opposing team becomes almost like child’s play.

2. High Speed / High Rep Practices. (HSHRP)
How many times have we heard from former Duck players that Chip/Helfrich practices were so fast that the games seemed slow by comparison? Or, how many times would we see a simple screen to DAT or LaMichael or Barner executed so flawlessly that it would go 60, 70, 80 yards? They ran that damn play about 25 times every practice. Every person knew EXACTLY what their assignment was.
HSHRP give you that ability.
It slows the game down for the players. And allows each play to be a gamewrecker simply because EVERY PLAY has been run to perfection countless times in practice beforehand.

Unfortunately, Cristobal doesn’t incorporate either of those tenets - 
No System.
No HRHSP.
So we’re stuck with high quality players playing subpar football. And I don’t foresee that changing until Cristobal gets onboard with these 2 aforementioned precepts.

What are your thoughts?

[BigDucksFan]

41 minutes ago, Sherman said:

1st time on the new forum.
Pretty cool.
So, watching the Ducks this truncated & frustrating season, I’ve been struck by how inept the overall play is.
We KNOW that the talent is there, but it’s not being truly utilized or presented on the field. And I’ve wondered about that.

Ive kinda tangentially touched on this before:::: Chip/Helfrich truly were innovative minds. But aside from their revolutionary (at the time) concepts with health science (individual smoothies, metabolic tracking, etc...), game management and hurry up play...... 2 things really stand out to me:::

1. They developed a fully integrated plan of attack. A SYSTEM. It wasn’t just test-the-edges so we can gash you up the middle. And it wasn’t just about speed, although at that time (no longer currently) we were among the fastest teams in the country.
Chip/Helfrich had a SYSTEM that was so efficient, so well thought out that they had an answer for every defensive alignment. Doesn’t anyone remember how outright deadly the Ducks were in the 3rd quarter after spending halftime making adjustments? That’s what a SYSTEM based on lethal simplicity affords you - The defense does this/We counter with that.
If WE know the answers to every question, then running over/around/thru the opposing team becomes almost like child’s play.

2. High Speed / High Rep Practices. (HSHRP)
How many times have we heard from former Duck players that Chip/Helfrich practices were so fast that the games seemed slow by comparison? Or, how many times would we see a simple screen to DAT or LaMichael or Barner executed so flawlessly that it would go 60, 70, 80 yards? They ran that damn play about 25 times every practice. Every person knew EXACTLY what their assignment was.
HSHRP give you that ability.
It slows the game down for the players. And allows each play to be a gamewrecker simply because EVERY PLAY has been run to perfection countless times in practice beforehand.

Unfortunately, Cristobal doesn’t incorporate either of those tenets - 
No System.
No HRHSP.
So we’re stuck with high quality players playing subpar football. And I don’t foresee that changing until Cristobal gets onboard with these 2 aforementioned precepts.

What are your thoughts?

Interesting thoughts Sherman. You may be right in that Cristobal has no system that we are aware of. Don't forget MC coached in Alabama for awhile and I'm sure he learned how they do things as well as developing his own system. Also you don't win two Pac-12 championships in a row without some sort of system in play and to my knowledge MC hasn't broadcast that system to anyone I know. 

Chip did have his fast pace practice in play at Oregon and that worked out for him. Not so much at UCLA. 

Personally I like the high speed practice, as like you say it slow the real game down for the players. I also don't think very many HC's have the same "system", always some differences. Asking Cristobal to use Chip/Helfrich's system would not work because it wouldn't fit, like putting a Chevrolet engine in a Ford car, it just doesn't fit. 

[Sherman]

BDF,
Nobody expects Cristobal to run Chip/Helfrich’s offense.
But I’ve yet to see ON THE FIELD what Moorhead is trying to do. I know a bit about what he was trying to do at PSU simply from articles I’ve read.
But looking for a consistent plan of attack from the Ducks offense for the last 3 years has been an exercise in futility.

I wrote about this a few weeks back. I talked about how Chip/Helfrich IMPOSED THEIR WILL on opposing teams with their SYSTEM. So much so, some teams viewed themselves as sacrificial lambs to the inevitability of the Ducks unstoppable attack.

Let me put it another way:
As a CASUAL FAN in 2014, most people could give a rudimentary explanation of how Marcus, Royce, Charles Nelson, et al were going to slice and dice the other team.
And if they wanted more detail on this SYSTEM, they simply had to view FishDuck for a comprehensive breakdown of the offense.

Can you....or anyone as knowledgeable as you....explain what Moorhead/Cristobal are trying to accomplish on offense? And why we can’t see it on the field.

Because as far as I can tell, it looks like a mish mash of sometimes clever plays....poorly executed....lacking consistency and clarity.

No system.

[Charles Fischer]

Sherman, I've wrote a few times about how there is no discernable system, but a mish-mash of what Cristobal will allow.  Moorhead had a system at Fordham and Penn State made up entirely of shotgun plays, but at Oregon...

[David Marsh]

We have gotten tastes of Moorhead's system. Though on the whole we haven't seen it and things have just not been consistent all year long. 

Next season there NEEDS to be a quarterback as the sole starter. There needs to be a leader on offense who makes the whole thing tick. 

The defense has found it's leaders and they are still growing. Those leaders will pull the defense together and bond. 

The offensive line has a leader in Forsythe as the center. But the offense on the whole is lacking in leadership. 

The compounds the nonreal system problem. A system provides built in leadership and identity. Without a concrete system there needs to be a leader to make things work... There isn't one. 

[Duckdude]

10 minutes ago, Charles Fischer said:

Sherman, I've wrote a few times about how there is no discernable system, but a mish-mash of what Cristobal will allow.  Moorhead had a system at Fordham and Penn State made up entirely of shotgun plays, but at Oregon...

So.......you’re saying/alluding that Cristobal is a good recruiter, good asst coach, but doesn’t view and direct the offensive system as a whole?  I agree!  Solution: he needs to be working under a Head Coach who can direct and deliver a unified(and effective) system.  

[Sherman]

Charles,
In my humble opinion, We (as Duck fans) and the U of O team will never get what we truly want::::

Climbing the heights of the college football pantheon....
not by just winning games..... but by dominating and instilling fear in our opponents like we did from 2008 to 2015
 
Until we become an innovative leader with a fully integrated offensive scheme that once again IMPOSES OUR WILL and strikes fear into defensive coordinators.

I believe my thoughts are best summed up by this classic film.
Mongol General: Hao! Dai ye! We won again! This is good, but what is best in life? 
Mongol: The open steppe, fleet horse, falcons at your wrist, and the wind in your hair. 
Mongol General:Wrong! Conan! What is best in life? 
Conan: To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of their women.

That’s right, Conan.
You magnificent barbarian!
Winning the Day one inside zone read spread concept at a time.

 

 

[Charles Fischer]

I know Sherman, and again--I've written extensively on FishDuck about how Cristobal wants to do anything other than what worked before.

[Charles Fischer]

25 minutes ago, Duckdude said:

So.......you’re saying/alluding that Cristobal is a good recruiter, good asst coach, but doesn’t view and direct the offensive system as a whole?  I agree!  Solution: he needs to be working under a Head Coach who can direct and deliver a unified(and effective) system.  

I apologize to so many that have read my many articles about this topic; yes Duckdude, I have stated that many times in articles in the past.

[David Marsh]

I would say Cristobal needs to let go of his need for control over the offensive system. 

By the looks of it he really lets the defense do its thing. 

He can and should be involved in the system and aware of how it works. But he needs to step back and let the offense opporate. He hired an OC with a great track record... Cristobal needs to learn to let others make him look good by letting them do their thing. 

He wants a power run game... Fine... Have the offensive coordinator develop and execute a scheme that incorporates a more power run game. But let them do that. 

[AnotherOD]

It was the first time in this short year I'd noticed it, but sideline shots showed Mario and Joe talking a lot (in a somewhat animated manner) during the game.

It seemed odd, especially in a program where the HC isn't thought to be directly calling plays, etc.

I like what I've seen so far from Joe but one can't help but wonder if Mario is letting him do his own thing.

If not, really why bring him in at nearly $1 million a year? It also would seem likely he's gonna jump somewhere else if it gets too frustrating (and then you are starting over at OC again).

 

Edited January 3, 2021 by AnotherOD

[tee duke]

Do we really know what's going on with the Ducks coaching? There's an awful lot of speculation going on. But so far at least I've yet to see anyone do anything more than infer.

One thing's for sure. The Ducks have no discernible system.

Edited January 3, 2021 by tee duke

[Old Geezer]

I'm not sure they have a system either but their execution of whatever they are trying to do on the field is horrible. I'm a glass half full kind of guy and am hoping that the experience of playing in this shortened season will pay dividends this spring and fall (God willing) and we will see a better prepared team on game days.

Remember the old saying that "those who can do, and those that cannot teach". I'm hoping for the former and not the latter going forward.