Jon Joseph No. 1 Share Posted May 29, 2023 (edited) I believe I have been too dismissive of thoughts regarding some kind of affiliation with ACC schools. Any thoughts regarding possible realignment (maybe not adding Amherst, Bowdoin, and Williams) are worth pondering. I do think the following would work both from a financial and a travel perspective but there is one critical piece to the puzzle that I will discuss below after laying out how the Atlantic and Pacific (A+P) Conference could be structured. Atlantic and Pacific Conference Pacific 12 Division West Pod - Arizona, ASU, Cal, Stanford Northwest Pod - Oregon, Oregon State, Washington, Washington State East Pod - CU, San Diego State, SMU, Utah Atlantic 16 Division East Pod - Boston College, NOTRE DAME, Pitt, Syracuse Mid-East Pod - Duke, UNC, NC St., Wake Forest Southeast Pod - Clemson, UVA, VA Tech, West Virginia (W VA would likely pay whatever it had to in order to have a better geographic fit) South Pod - FSU, Georgia Tech, Louisville, Miami The above would easily be the #3 conference of the Power 4 conferences. It is probably apparent to all reading the above that bringing on Notre Dame as a full-time football member would be critical as would be working through a new media deal with ESPN. With the end of the ACC conference, the ACC-Notre Dame football scheduling agreement would also be terminated. As would the onerous media deal with ESPN. Notre Dame would be the straw that stirs this drink. To entice Notre Dame to come on board as a full football-playing member I would allow Notre Dame to continue its broadcast arrangement with NBC and continue to receive three-quarters of the revenue from this agreement with the other quarter paid to the AP. This suggestion is only if NBC was willing to come on as a broadcast partner for the other AP games. This is the price that would have to be paid for the most valuable brand still left on the realignment board. Yes, Notre Dame could opt for the B1G. However, there is long-running bad blood between the B1G and Notre Dame, and other than ice hockey (where Notre Dame is a B1G member) all other sports have been contested in the ACC for over a decade. Also, would Notre Dame rather face Ohio State, Michigan, Penn State, Wisconsin, and Iowa in football or play against AP members? 3 out-of-conference football games, as discussed below, would allow the Irish to play traditional foes Navy, Stanford and USC. ESPN with ESPN+ and NBC with Peacock would provide both linear and streaming services (possibly as augmented by a deal with Apple/Amazon.) The ACC Network would become the AP Network. The Pac-12 Network facilities would be used for in-studio coverage and game broadcasts of Pacific Division sporting events. Football and basketball would be played cross-division. Football pods would play 3 football games against other pod members every year; hopefully, the final 3 games of the regular season. There would also be 4 intra-division games. 2 cross-division games and 3 out-of-conference games. The top 2 teams, regardless of division, would play for the conference football title. There would be one intra-division basketball tournament. All other sports would be played intra-division augmented by cross-division games as so desired. This format would cut down on travel for non-revenue sports teams. The champion of the Pacific in any given non-revenue sport would play the champion of the Atlantic. But dual meets could be held for track and field, and there could be a collective conference tournament for sports such as baseball, softball, golf, volleyball, and so on. I do think the above would work financially and logistically but not without the Irish coming on board. Does this make any sense to you? And if it was ever presented to them in this fashion or another would it make sense to George Kliavkoff and Jim Phillips who would serve as co-commissioners? Edited May 29, 2023 by Jon Joseph 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Fischer Administrator No. 2 Share Posted May 29, 2023 I am very impressed with all the time and thought you put into this, but IMHO....and I've talked to some Notre Dame fans...I do believe they will stay independent and not link up with a conference for more games than what they do with the current ACC. They make great money now, and it will be bigger, but they also do not want to be locked into decisions they don't agree with. (This is what I was told from a philosophical and religious standpoint) It would be great if they went along--but I believe it is low probability. Mr. FishDuck Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Joseph Author No. 3 Share Posted May 29, 2023 On 5/29/2023 at 11:40 AM, Charles Fischer said: I am very impressed with all the time and thought you put into this, but IMHO....and I've talked to some Notre Dame fans...I do believe they will stay independent and not link up with a conference for more games than what they do with the current ACC. They make great money now, and it will be bigger, but they also do not want to be locked into decisions they don't agree with. (This is what I was told from a philosophical and religious standpoint) It would be great if they went along--but I believe it is low probability. Do not disagree at all. But without the ACC scheduling agreement, ND could have a tough time filling out a schedule with an SOS decent enough to get a playoff seeding high enough (5-8) to play an opening-round playoff game in South Bend. And where would all of its other sports besides football play? I very much doubt that the B1G would allow ND to stay independent in football and take in all of the other sports in addition to ice hockey. No doubt, the entire structure has a low, low probability. But I do believe it would work financially and logistically. As always, thanks for your thoughts. (At the very least I hope the playoff powers-that-be will require ND to play a 13th game against a P5 opponent. A 12-game schedule when all conference champs and runners-up play 13 games is a playoff scam.) I'm not certain but add UCF instead of ND and this might still make sense financially. Orlando is a bigger media market than Miami. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HappyToBeADuck No. 4 Share Posted May 29, 2023 JJ, thanks for that great post. A joint merger between the ACC/PAC would solidify their place at the table This combined conference preserves rivalries, offers 9:00 am pst to 11:00 pm pst Power 5 games to broadcast and would provide some new games of interest. Without out of the box thinking their will be a 2 super conference entity that dominates and dictates the landscape by the mid 20 thirties. Both you and Charles have been warning about this scenario! Looking to the future requires forward thinking. With proper planning and scheduling the AP could provide quality matchups that could rival Fox's Big Noon Kickoff and compete head to head with Fox' Prime Time Saturday evening games. What would be more compelling to watch? Purdue vs ucla or UNC vs WA? USC / Northwestern or Utah vs FSU MIch/USC or Clemson vs Oregon Ucla vs Iowa or SMU vs Wake fricken Or when the SEC plays 4 cupcake OOC games the AP could field at least 1 or 2 quality matchups. Question is...... Are their enough or any out of the box forward thinkers who will lead and shape their collective future? Or will they let the SEC and BIG shape that future for them? It's time the ACC and PAC make some counter moves. As they say, lead, follow or get out of the way. GO DUCKS!!!!!!!! 2 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Joseph Author No. 5 Share Posted May 29, 2023 Every time I see a reference to Wake I think of the great movie Brian's Song about the relationship between Bears teammates Brian Piccolo and Gayle Sayers. Well worth the watch. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrspenney No. 6 Share Posted May 29, 2023 Jon, I think you are right on when you discuss 3 super conferences, I know that there is a lot of talk regarding just two, but you may be correct. I don't think you're correct about Notre Dame. I went to the only high school the Holy Cross Order had in the country. Was supposed to go to ND, but always wanted to be a Duck. I know a lot of the priests at ND, have a lot of family as well as friends who are ND alums and some significant donors. Joining a conference for football would be something that is repulsive to most ND alums, I just don't see it. Also I don't see WSU and OSU surviving as well as schools like Wake Forest and Pitt. I hope you are correct, because I don't think that schools that are not in a super conference will be able to financially afford to field football teams. The super conferences, 2, or 3 will suck up all the TV monies. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HouClone No. 7 Share Posted May 29, 2023 On 5/29/2023 at 2:36 PM, HappyToBeADuck said: JJ, thanks for that great post. A joint merger between the ACC/PAC would solidify their place at the table This combined conference preserves rivalries, offers 9:00 am pst to 11:00 pm pst Power 5 games to broadcast and would provide some new games of interest. Without out of the box thinking their will be a 2 super conference entity that dominates and dictates the landscape by the mid 20 thirties. Both you and Charles have been warning about this scenario! Looking to the future requires forward thinking. With proper planning and scheduling the AP could provide quality matchups that could rival Fox's Big Noon Kickoff and compete head to head with Fox' Prime Time Saturday evening games. What would be more compelling to watch? Purdue vs ucla or UNC vs WA? USC / Northwestern or Utah vs FSU MIch/USC or Clemson vs Oregon Ucla vs Iowa or SMU vs Wake fricken Or when the SEC plays 4 cupcake OOC games the AP could field at least 1 or 2 quality matchups. Question is...... Are their enough or any out of the box forward thinkers who will lead and shape their collective future? Or will they let the SEC and BIG shape that future for them? It's time the ACC and PAC make some counter moves. As they say, lead, follow or get out of the way. GO DUCKS!!!!!!!! A merger or scheduling agreement with the ACC has some merit. The problem as always: tv. 3 time zone difference is problematic. The afternoon slots are all filled up with the other conferences. So noon EST is 9 a.m. PST. That can't pull in much ratings in the PST. What about 7 p.m. EST? That works a bit. Next is the 7 p.m PST slot. It is open. But that is 10 p.m. EST. It's getting a little late for viewers and recruits on the East Coast. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rufus No. 8 Share Posted May 30, 2023 A merger of the PAC and ACC would still be at risk for raiding by the B1G and SEC, just like they are now as separate conferences. If we go back to posts from last summer, we were criticizing USC and UCLA for all of the travel they would put their student athletes through. A B1G and ACC merger would have schools even further apart than USC and UCLA are from most B1G schools. The PAC would probably have to agree to be a part of the current ACC grant of rights that lasts through 2036. Not sure that is in the best interests of Oregon. All of the teams in the ACC we would get excited about playing will likely bolt the conference the first chance they get. As would we. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HappyToBeADuck No. 9 Share Posted May 30, 2023 As with anything worth while their will be pros and cons. It's always easier to find reasons to not take a risk or make a change. All the concerns posted are very valid and would need to be worked out. However the pros are compelling. IMHO, The travel situation is not like usc or ucla. They are a 2 team traveling show on an island. Traveling away every other week. It may have been a good financial move by Fox to capture the LA market. However, not so good for the athletes and fans. As JJ laid out, there would be a 12 team conference and a 16 team conference. Not much travel would be necessary. In football a schedule could be created for just 1 interconference trip a year. Six schools go east and six go west. The TV ratings would be high. The games would draw east and west coast fans. More eyeballs for TV. (Basketball could have conference challenge matchups one week out of the year. Maybe one year in Vegas the next year Charlotte or Atlanta.) This type of merger would provide at least 5 teams who could make the top 12 annually. Clemson, FSU, Utah, UW and Oregon would challenge for CFP appearances. This would put pressure on the SEC and BIG in their quest to put 3 or 4 teams annually into the CFP. I cannot understate that any school who gets to the semifinals will have earned $50 to $60 million win or lose. The 4th game for the Natty will bring another $30 million plus. This is ridiculous money and the ACC and PAC should consider creating a situation that cannot be ignored by the networks, SEC and big. Create a situation where you can dictate some of the terms. Not be dictated to. 28 teams with coastal viewers and 5 heavy weight members will be a force. Also, fans will watch what they want, when they want and how they want. Just televise your best Tier 1 games and viewers will watch. I watch noon est, 9 pst kickoffs every Saturday. Why wouldn't i watch 2 ACC teams? Especially if it mattered to the Ducks..... It only takes 8 teams to agree to break up the ACC and espn would have to scramble. I would love to see FSU, UNC, Clemson and MIami join in an AP Conference with Oregon, Utah and UW. That is football clout with leverage. Of course if ifs and buts,were candy and nuts, then everday would be Christmas....... 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Marsh No. 10 Share Posted May 30, 2023 On 5/29/2023 at 8:50 AM, Jon Joseph said: I'm not certain but add UCF instead of ND and this might still make sense financially. Orlando is a bigger media market than Miami. Didnt ucf join the big-12 and their media rights are locked up for some time now? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Fischer Administrator No. 11 Share Posted May 30, 2023 On 5/29/2023 at 8:39 PM, David Marsh said: Didn't UCF join the big-12 and their media rights are locked up for some time now? Yep. Mr. FishDuck Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Joseph Author No. 12 Share Posted May 30, 2023 (edited) On 5/29/2023 at 11:41 PM, Charles Fischer said: Yep. Spot on but to play closer to home and with a better media deal and to be covered by a dedicated network, I think UCF like W VA would be incented to find a way out of their current deal. If the AP was to come to fruition the entire B12 could be left behind. But this is all ceiling walking so it's easy to project any number of arrangements that for business reasons might not work out. The most contentious split that I can recall is when Maryland left the ACC for the B1G, litigated over the buyout, and ended up paying a much lower buyout. This was before the current ACC media deal with a $120M buyout through 2036 but it was still a big chink of change. Texas and Oklahoma delayed their departure to the SEC but between the two they are paying a $160M buyout. The move by SC and UCLA was serendipitous for the LA schools as the Pac media deal only had one year left. Edited May 30, 2023 by Jon Joseph Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Joseph Author No. 13 Share Posted May 30, 2023 On 5/30/2023 at 12:22 AM, cartm25 said: Yes this does make sense. Can’t imagine where you came up with such a brilliant idea (see link below) Glad you’ve come around. https://forum.fishduck.com/topic/10214-acc-demise/?do=findComment&comment=91160&_rid=304 Touche! But the clincher for me would be, as noted, the new AP forcing ND to come on board by eliminating the football scheduling agreement. This and getting ESPN to renegotiate the existing ACC deal and bring NBC on board as a broadcast partner. Your post and others suggesting a relationship of one sort or another with the ACC is why I opened my comment by saying that I had likely been too dismissive of the idea to combine in one fashion or another with the ACC. Of course, your idea like any realignment idea has a lot of merit but I would not want to have more than 28 teams, if that, when it came to splitting up revenue. Thanks for the friendly elbow check. I had it coming. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Joseph Author No. 14 Share Posted May 30, 2023 On 5/29/2023 at 9:18 PM, Rufus said: A merger of the PAC and ACC would still be at risk for raiding by the B1G and SEC, just like they are now as separate conferences. If we go back to posts from last summer, we were criticizing USC and UCLA for all of the travel they would put their student athletes through. A B1G and ACC merger would have schools even further apart than USC and UCLA are from most B1G schools. The PAC would probably have to agree to be a part of the current ACC grant of rights that lasts through 2036. Not sure that is in the best interests of Oregon. All of the teams in the ACC we would get excited about playing will likely bolt the conference the first chance they get. As would we. True. However, I think the AP teams would be less at risk than the ACC out there on its own and could close the financial gap with the B1G and the SEC; especially, if Notre Dame was on board consensually or via an AP power play. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Joseph Author No. 15 Share Posted May 30, 2023 On 5/29/2023 at 9:18 PM, Rufus said: A merger of the PAC and ACC would still be at risk for raiding by the B1G and SEC, just like they are now as separate conferences. If we go back to posts from last summer, we were criticizing USC and UCLA for all of the travel they would put their student athletes through. A B1G and ACC merger would have schools even further apart than USC and UCLA are from most B1G schools. The PAC would probably have to agree to be a part of the current ACC grant of rights that lasts through 2036. Not sure that is in the best interests of Oregon. All of the teams in the ACC we would get excited about playing will likely bolt the conference the first chance they get. As would we. If the AP came about the ACC would go away and along with it the grant of rights to the current media deal. And I believe that ESPN would favorably renegotiate the deal. Not to B1G and SEC levels but more than $20M a year. But in 2022, because of the income from the ACC network, ACC schools received more $ in total distributions than did the Pac-12 with fewer schools. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tandaian No. 16 Share Posted May 30, 2023 It is an intriguing thought, however why would ESPN be a willing participant when the ACC teams essentially gave them the middle finger. ESPN negotiated in good faith. ACC was extremely happy when they announced the contract. I don't think ESPN is going to be happy about paying millions more when they thought had their product locked in until 2036. I'm not sure it is as easy as 8 teams saying I quit to the ACC. Pissing off your TV partner isn't a great business decision for future negotiations. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
