Is The QB Position The Greatest Indicator of a Coaches Ability?

[Haywarduck]

From Rich Brooks to Mike Bellotti, and then Chip Kelly they almost always had an elite qb. This didn't, actually seldom did it, come from recruiting 5* talent. It came from picking the right guy and developing him.

 

Is the lack of picking the right guy and developing him the best indicator of a coaches ability? Helfrich was the guy who pushed the program to get Mariota so he had, has an eye for talent. He also failed repeatedly after that, and then had to bring in a transfer to try and keep the program going.

 

Finally Helfrich didn't continue the picking and development of the qb position, and that may have been is real downfall?

 

We don't know how good slick would have been with the qb, but indicators don't seem to be too good. MariØ definitely failed with his handling of every qb he touched, so maybe there is something to hiring a qb whisperer.

 

So far we have to give Lanning a passing grade on the qb position, but that isn't a given. Maybe the qb position will continue to be a trouble spot after our superb run at the position. Or maybe Lanning will be able to pick right up where Chip left off. I suppose this weekend will be another indicator.

 

Is the qb position the best indicator for how well a coach will do, at least at Oregon?

[Charles Fischer]

On 10/18/2022 at 11:02 AM, Haywarduck said:

Is the qb position the best indicator for how well a coach will do, at least at Oregon?

Isn't it everywhere?  How good would OSU be if they had an experienced QB?  As you know the Ducks have had so many seasons destroyed when the QB get injured, such a disproportionate burden of success placed on one player.  Recruit well at that position or the rest doesn't matter as much.

 

As my ol' favorite Viking Coach Bud Grant once said when asked what it takes to be a winning coach?  "You need a good wife, and good huntin' dog, and a good quarterback.  And not in that order...."

 

[30Duck]

Interesting question. When LSU won the Natty, he was a great QB, but I don't know how much Coach O had to do with it. Kirby Smartt and Stetson are a great combo at Georgia., but QB's aren't a huge part of Smartt's resume'. Chip had great success with very different QB's, Thomas, Mariota. It's easier to see where a coach might not be getting it right with a QB, maybe that guy who coached at Oregon before Lanning?

[David Marsh]

On 10/18/2022 at 11:02 AM, Haywarduck said:

inally Helfrich didn't continue the picking and development of the qb position, and that may have been is real downfall?

I think the bigger problem was that Helfrich didn't personally continue to coach quarterbacks.

 

Frost I would say is good at teaching QBing 301 for established quarterbacks who need some fine tuning... Mariota and Adams being two key examples. But Frost can't seem to ensure the development of a raw product that needs QBing 101.

 

Helfrich brought in David Yost in 2016 and I think that was probaly a major factor in Herbert's early development as from the sound of it Taggart and Arroyo and Cristobal really didn't do anything to encourage his development afterwards. But he did at least have a strong foundation that he could build on.

 

Hard to say right now what is going on with the development of the backups under Dillingham. As it has been beaten to death at this point that Thompson hasn't looked good in games but maybe he is looking good in practice? Maybe Thompson is amazing in practice and just can't convert that to something in front of a crowd as that is something that could happen.

[DazeNconfused]

I've answered this idea that Helfrich didn't recruit or develop QBs before here on the Forum.

 

Bryan Bennett was a 4-star who transferred out because of MM. Bennett showed on the field he was not a bust and would have been a great Duck QB if not for MM.

 

Helf was Bennett's primary recruiter the year before MM, then Helf got MM the next year. Then the year after we got Jake Rodrigues who was a 4-star.

 

MM causes two 4-star QBs to leave the program, plus he scared away any good QB signings in 2013. 

 

2014 saw us get Morgan Mahalak a 4-star during MM's last year.

 

2015 saw us land VA as a Grad Transfer and he was AWESOME - plus we signed 4-star Travis Jonsen.

 

2016 The Ducks got Grad Transfer Dakoata Prukop and Morgan Mahalak left the team. In fall camp Justin Herbert, a 3-star came in and as a true frosh beat out Travis Jonsen and he left the program. 

 

In conclusion Helf got plenty of talented QB recruits - including four who were 4-stars and two who were 3-stars and ended up as 1st round draft picks. 

 

What more did any Duck fan want from Helf?

 

Bennett, Rodrigues, Mahalak and Jonsen all cut bait and ran.

Mahalak couldn't beat out VA so that's not a strike on Helf. Mahalak bailed and didn't compete with Prokup - who was no VA for sure. 

 

Helf got 7 years starting QB play out of MM and Herbs, and for good measure he got a year out of VA that if he didn't get hurt, we probably are in the playoffs and VA is in NY as a Heisman finalist. 

 

Here is what people are complaining about with Helf...

 

In 2015 when VA got hurt, he didn't have good backup, well two 4-stars had bailed because MM and Mahalak was just a 2nd year guy.

 

In 2016 we didn't have a HS recruited QB developed and got Prukop - again the Rodrigues and Mahalak had bailed out. But Herbs emerged over 2nd year Jonsen.

 

In 2017 when Herbs got hurt there wasn't a good backup QB for Taggart - well 4-stars Mahalak and Jonsen had bailed. 

 

I don't know where some Duck fans have got the mantra Helf screwed up the QB recruiting and development. The man brought us two 1st round picks and VA as Grad Transfer. 

 

Thats eight seasons out of nine that Helfs dudes were kicking butt at QB for the Ducks. I would think going forward anyone who reads this post would lose the idea Helf failed.

 

EDIT: look at the QBs transferred out because of Herbs. Jonsen, Terry Wilson, Burmeister. That makes six QBs who left the program from MM's 1st starting year until Herbs last - five of them were 4-stars.

 

Edited October 18, 2022 by DazeNconfused

[Haywarduck]

On 10/18/2022 at 2:21 PM, DazeNconfused said:

I've answered this idea that Helfrich didn't recruit or develop QBs before here on the Forum.

 

Bryan Bennett was a 4-star who transferred out because of MM. Bennett showed on the field he was not a bust and would have been a great Duck QB if not for MM.

 

Helf was Bennett's primary recruiter the year before MM, then Helf got MM the next year. Then the year after we got Jake Rodrigues who was a 4-star.

 

MM causes two 4-star QBs to leave the program, plus he scared away any good QB signings in 2013. 

 

2014 saw us get Morgan Mahalak a 4-star during MM's last year.

 

2015 saw us land VA as a Grad Transfer and he was AWESOME - plus we signed 4-star Travis Jonsen.

 

2016 The Ducks got Grad Transfer Dakoata Prukop and Morgan Mahalak left the team. In fall camp Justin Herbert, a 3-star came in and as a true frosh beat out Travis Jonsen and he left the program. 

 

In conclusion Helf got plenty of talented QB recruits - including four who were 4-stars and two who were 3-stars and ended up as 1st round draft picks. 

 

What more did any Duck fan want from Helf?

 

Bennett, Rodrigues, Mahalak and Jonsen all cut bait and ran.

Mahalak couldn't beat out VA so that's not a strike on Helf. Mahalak bailed and didn't compete with Prokup - who was no VA for sure. 

 

Helf got 7 years starting QB play out of MM and Herbs, and for good measure he got a year out of VA that if he didn't get hurt, we probably are in the playoffs and VA is in NY as a Heisman finalist. 

 

Here is what people are complaining about with Helf...

 

In 2015 when VA got hurt, he didn't have good backup, well two 4-stars had bailed because MM and Mahalak was just a 2nd year guy.

 

In 2016 we didn't have a HS recruited QB developed and got Prukop - again the Rodrigues and Mahalak had bailed out. But Herbs emerged over 2nd year Jonsen.

 

In 2017 when Herbs got hurt there wasn't a good backup QB for Taggart - well 4-stars Mahalak and Jonsen had bailed. 

 

I don't know where some Duck fans have got the mantra Helf screwed up the QB recruiting and development. The man brought us two 1st round picks and VA as Grad Transfer. 

 

Thats eight seasons out of nine that Helfs dudes were kicking butt at QB for the Ducks. I would think going forward anyone who reads this post would lose the idea Helf failed.

 

EDIT: look at the QBs transferred out because of Herbs. Jonsen, Terry Wilson, Burmeister. That makes six QBs who left the program from MM's 1st starting year until Herbs last - five of them were 4-stars.

 

He failed, you need a good back-up. I will agree he recruited well, but you have to develop and keep back-ups.

 

The reason we lost the Alamo bowl was because,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,we didn't have a back-up,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,center. Helfrich had a guy who was going to redshirt take all the second string snaps at center.

 

When our center went down he wouldn't burn the guys redshirt and put in a guy who had little or no experience as a center at the college level. The nightmare unfolded.

 

MariØ and Lanning have been able to keep two highly touted back-ups at qb.

 

I will agree with Marsh's take he left that management to others, and that is where we suffered. I am not saying Helfrich was all bad, but his management of many elements of a program was severely lacking.

 

I will give you he recruited some good qb's, that isn't enough as we saw with the previous regime.

[DazeNconfused]

On 10/18/2022 at 3:00 PM, Haywarduck said:

He failed, you need a good back-up. I will agree he recruited well, but you have to develop and keep back-ups.

 

The reason we lost the Alamo bowl was because,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,we didn't have a back-up,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,center. Helfrich had a guy who was going to redshirt take all the second string snaps at center.

 

When our center went down he wouldn't burn the guys redshirt and put in a guy who had little or no experience as a center at the college level. The nightmare unfolded.

 

MariØ and Lanning have been able to keep two highly touted back-ups at qb.

 

I will agree with Marsh's take he left that management to others, and that is where we suffered. I am not saying Helfrich was all bad, but his management of many elements of a program was severely lacking.

 

I will give you he recruited some good qb's, that isn't enough as we saw with the previous regime.

I'm still going to disagree with what you said in the OP regarding Helf and his QBs. I'm not going to get into the weeds all things Helf, I was responding to his QBs.

 

Transfers happened in Helf's Era and even got more high profile.

 

Baker Mayfield, Jalen Hurts, Justin Fields, Joe Burrow all were transfers - did their coaches fail for not keeping their recruits?

 

Last year we saw tons of QB transfers. Slovis, Dart, Penix, Spencer Rattler, Quinn Ewers, Dillion Gaberial, Cam ward, Daniels to LSU, Bo Nix, JT Daniles, jaden De Laura, Max Jonhson, Plummer to Cal.

 

If you're setting the bar that Helf had to have two 1st round NFL QB picks and VA - plus he had to keep his recruits and develop them into prime time QBs then I guess that's your take.

 

it is what it is, we disagree on what Helf did with his QBs - no biggie I've had this disagreement about Helf before. 

 

Edited October 18, 2022 by DazeNconfused

[Haywarduck]

On 10/18/2022 at 3:14 PM, DazeNconfused said:

I'm still going to disagree with what you said in the OP regarding Helf and his QBs. I'm not going to get into the weeds all things Helf, I was responding to his QBs.

 

Transfers happened in Helf's Era and even got more high profile.

 

Baker Mayfield, Jalen Hurts, Justin Fields, Joe Burrow all were transfers - did their coaches fail for not keeping their recruits?

 

Last year we saw tons of QB transfers. Slovis, Dart, Penix, Spencer Rattler, Quinn Ewers, Dillion Gaberial, Cam ward, Daniels to LSU, Bo Nix, JT Daniles, jaden De Laura, Max Jonhson, Plummer to Cal.

 

If you're setting the bar that Helf had to have two 1st round NFL QB picks and VA - plus he had to keep his recruits and develop them into prime time QBs then I guess that's your take.

 

it is what it is, we disagree on what Helf did with his QBs - no biggie I've had this disagreement about Helf before. 

 

They have gotten even more high profile because there is immediate eligibility. Justin Fields is an interesting story on that one.

 

Losing transfers when you have to sit out a year back in Helf's time made it more of a head scratcher. Maybe Marcus was just a qb destroyer, Johnny football left before he even signed, didn't want to compete.

 

I'll agree to disagree on my point. I still think a head coach either thrives or dies by how they recruit, and develop, and use qb's. Helfrich died because he couldn't recruit and develop qb's. Maybe that is why they all left?

 

MariØ will die as a head coach because he can't develop, or scheme for a qb. He can recruit them, he can even keep them as back-ups unlike Helfrich. He just doesn't know how to use them.

 

Also Helfrich recruited Marcus, Vernon was a transfer, no development, and Justin was an afterthought, almost didn't get a scholarship. If merely recruiting is the bar then MariØ wins the contest, if that is the bar you are setting.

[Mic]

 

Said Charles above:

 

As my ol' favorite Viking Coach Bud Grant once said when asked what it takes to be a winning coach?  "You need a good wife, and good huntin' dog, and a good quarterback.  And not in that order...."

 

That's a great quote, C.  Bud was probably the best HC to never win a Super Bowl.  But his teams played in a few!

[Charles Fischer]

This discussion about Helfrich comes up on a regular basis; sometimes you just have some bad luck at recruiting at a position, and that case could certainly be made for Lanning and the offensive line at this moment.  Are you going to blame him?

 

Let's also address the real issue why Helfrich got fired: 1) he did not analyze and recruit good assistant coaches, (Brady Hoke as DC) 2) was not a great recruiter of players, and 3) he was not a leader.  (He lost the team once Mariota left) While it is another discussion...his skills of building a game-plan and play-calling were superb under Chip Kelly as OC, and then as HC himself.

 

As for quarterback recruiting?  Let's look at an article written in 2016 on the eve of the Washington game...  (Shouldn't recruiting two 4-Star QBs and two 3-Star QBs to follow Mariota be enough?)

 

Mark Helfrich's Quarterback MESS at Oregon

FISHDUCK.COM

---

Oregon head coach Mark Helfrich has been accused of failing to plan for the quarterback position with Oregon football. This article is a offers a rebuttal.

 

Remember that identifying Justin Herbert was extraordinary by Helfrich.  Oregon was his only Power-5 offer?  Montana State?  Portland State?  Is there any credit to Helfrich for that?

[Jhoff]

On 10/18/2022 at 4:33 PM, Mic said:

 

Said Charles above:

 

As my ol' favorite Viking Coach Bud Grant once said when asked what it takes to be a winning coach?  "You need a good wife, and good huntin' dog, and a good quarterback.  And not in that order...."

 

That's a great quote, C.  Bud was probably the best HC to never win a Super Bowl.  But his teams played in a few!

Don't mean to be picky but wasn't But Grant's quote  "..... and not necessarily in that order"?

[Just Ducky]

A great QB is an indicator of a successful coach.

[Just Ducky]

 Does anyone know the real reason why Mark didn’t want Tua. That was a huge mistake for him.

[DazeNconfused]

On 10/18/2022 at 4:45 PM, Charles Fischer said:

This discussion about Helfrich comes up on a regular basis; sometimes you just have some bad luck at recruiting at a position, and that case could certainly be made for Lanning and the offensive line at this moment.  Are you going to blame him?

 

Let's also address the real issue why Helfrich got fired: 1) he did not analyze and recruit good assistant coaches, (Brady Hoke as DC) 2) was not a great recruiter of players, and 3) he was not a leader.  (He lost the team once Mariota left) While it is another discussion...his skills of building a game-plan and play-calling were superb under Chip Kelly as OC, and then as HC himself.

 

As for quarterback recruiting?  Let's look at an article written in 2016 on the eve of the Washington game...  (Shouldn't recruiting two 4-Star QBs and two 3-Star QBs to follow Mariota be enough?)

 

Mark Helfrich's Quarterback MESS at Oregon

FISHDUCK.COM

---

Oregon head coach Mark Helfrich has been accused of failing to plan for the quarterback position with Oregon football. This article is a offers a rebuttal.

 

Remember that identifying Justin Herbert was extraordinary by Helfrich.  Oregon was his only Power-5 offer?  Montana State?  Portland State?  Is there any credit to Helfrich for that?

This is a great post Charles, and it could get me to go off on a rant about Hoke and Pellum's LBs he was coaching. I'll leave it as it appeared we didn't watch any game film and correct mistakes all season -- we saw the same saw busts on D all year long. over and over and over

 

To your second point of Helf not being a leader - I agree. Helf was a nice guy, but he was soft. He wasn't the type of pf guy to jump down Hoke's throat, chew his butt out and hold him accountable. He demoted Pellum from DC and moved him back to LB coach - should have just fired him and moved on. Why bring the bad blood of a 30 plus year coach who had been demoted back? 

 

Helf was soft and teams take on the persona of the coach. Chip wasn't soft, Mario wasn't soft, Lanning isn't soft. 

Clay Helton was soft and had his buddies on his coaching staff - the AD had to make him fire them as part of keeping Helton.

 

Helf should have fired Hoke mid-season when it was apparent the coaching the players were getting was sub-standard. Kids now call that having some DOG in you - Helf had no DOG in him and no bite. 

 

That was also a good article you wrote back in the day. The only thing I'd dispute is if Morgan Mahalak should have been playing. He was a one-year starter in HS football - he was Jared Goffs WR his junior year. My take is Mahalak was an entitled little twat who was bad for the locker room and felt he was due the next man up after MM left. 

 

With one year starting in HS and one redshirt season there was no way he was close to the level of VA who came in day 1 and was Elite. Mahalak should have been realistic that he was going to have to bide his time and develop in college to make up for the game experience he missed in HS. Instead of sticking around for his third year and competing with Prokup - the entitled twat took off to Towson. 

 

Check Mahalaks stats at Towson - he was never the guy there. Maybe if he stayed in Helfs system for year three he beats out Prokup or is QB2 and ends up taking over? Or maybe Herbs beats him out too? Mahalak is one of my least favorite Duck transfers and you can pick up the vibe why I think that's so. 

 

Herbs played in a spread offense at Sheldon and had lots of game experience in HS - he came in and got through his progressions better than Terry Wilson and Travis Jonsen from day 1.

 

In the period of the 9 years that the Ducks had 8 years combined of MM-VA-Herbs, the only Transfer QB that had any success was Terry Wilson who ended up as the starter at Kentucky in the SEC. Even then he was average at best.

 

In that same 9-year period how many teams had two 1st round QB picks come out of the program and a third who was as good as VA? 

 

[DazeNconfused]

On 10/19/2022 at 7:43 AM, Just Ducky said:

 Does anyone know the real reason why Mark didn’t want Tua. That was a huge mistake for him.

The older I get some things just slip my mind or are hard to make an instant recall. This was one of the gripes about Helf.

 

If I remember correctly.. Tua let his grades drop some early in his HS career and Helf left him with a let's see you get your grades up and show you want to play college football.

Edited October 19, 2022 by DazeNconfused

[Haywarduck]

On 10/19/2022 at 7:43 AM, Just Ducky said:

 Does anyone know the real reason why Mark didn’t want Tua. That was a huge mistake for him.

Another indicator of how he wasn't a great recruiter as head coach. He didn't manage the recruiting of Tua too well. Remember the Ryan Kelly fiasco, while the old Nebraska head coach was our OC, Helfrich head coach. He took over a Ferrari and forgot to keep it filled up. There was plenty of talent just waiting to keep the engine going.

 

I think David's point about the move by Helfrich to head coach, and losing the connection to the qb position has a lot of validity to it. Helfrich was a very good position coach, just didn't have what it took to be a head coach, or sustain it.

 

How far did Helfrich have to go to sign Herbert, and how long did it take? Herbert wanted to be a Duck, his dream school, basically right across the street, every connection you could ask for and he was an afterthought. Another one of those Helrich, Frost mismanaged situations at qb.  I can give Helfrich some credit, but let's not put him on a pedestal.

 

I would bet if he wasn't the head coach, Alliotti was, Helfrich signs Herbert, and he wins the Heisman. As head coach, he didn't have it.

[DazeNconfused]

On 10/19/2022 at 7:37 AM, Just Ducky said:

A great QB is an indicator of a successful coach.

Tell that to Nick Saban who won four natty with QBs like JaMarcus TheBust Russel, McElroy, AJ McCarron and the last guy I can't remember. One of them had the pretty GF they showed on TV over and over. 

 

Les Miles who won a Natty with matt Flynn -- QBs don't make great coaches

[Charles Fischer]

On 10/19/2022 at 7:43 AM, Just Ducky said:

 Does anyone know the real reason why Mark didn’t want Tua. That was a huge mistake for him.

Oh Geez.  This is another myth that I've written about many times and need to save it--since it comes up every year.

 

In Tua's sophomore year in HS...his grades were not good.  Oregon wanted to offer, and Tua wanted to be the ONLY QB Oregon took that year.  But with the bad luck he had been having at recruiting QBs...Helfrich could not go all in a QB with shaky grades and end up with nothing.  If he could only offer one scholarship for QB the following year, Helfrich had to KNOW that the grades are fine, and I agree with Mark on this.

 

So he told Tua he would offer when the grades got better, and the Ducks continued to recruit other QBs.  When Tua got the grades up in six months--he gave the finger to Helfrich.

 

Helfrich can be blamed for a ton of things, but this was not one of them.

[Haywarduck]

On 10/19/2022 at 8:43 AM, Charles Fischer said:

Oh Geez.  This is another myth that I've written about many times and need to save it--since it comes up every year.

 

In Tua's sophomore year in HS...his grades were not good.  Oregon wanted to offer, and Tua wanted to be the ONLY QB Oregon took that year.  But with the bad luck he had been having at recruiting QBs...Helfrich could not go all in a QB with shaky grades and end up with nothing.  If he could only offer one scholarship for QB the following year, Helfrich had to KNOW that the grades are fine, and I agree with Mark on this.

 

So he told Tua he would offer when the grades got better, and the Ducks continued to recruit other QBs.  When Tua got the grades up in six months--he gave the finger to Helfrich.

 

Helfrich can be blamed for a ton of things, but this was not one of them.

We can agree to disagree on that one. He managed that poorly. Maybe we can agree his assistant Scott Frost managed this poorly.

 

Maybe Scott Frost was the guy who we can blame for the shift away from Helfrich's prowess as a qb guy. 

 

 

[Mic]

On 10/19/2022 at 7:29 AM, Jhoff said:

Don't mean to be picky but wasn't But Grant's quote  "..... and not necessarily in that order"?

probably, but he was close enuf - still funny

[Drake]

A team with a good QB is always dangerous. So, in short, my answer is yes. 
 

So many elements in the college game that determines a team’s success. However, a coach that recruits and develops solid QB’s will have a distinct advantage over those who struggle in that area. 

 

[Charles Fischer]

We have had a number of parties get offended/annoyed with this thread and I've been in communications with many.  Let's move on, and I will lock the thread.