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FishDuck Article

Trading Places: Burrow Replaces Herbert at Oregon

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Darren Perkins, one of our own at FishDuck, wrote this past Friday about Herbert’s draft billing and its relationship to head coach Mario Cristobal’s coaching which got me thinking about the 2019 season again. Joe Burrow became the unanimous first choice of the NFL Draft this time a year ago, as Oregon star quarterback Justin Herbert followed closely behind at sixth overall ...

Read the full article here...

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 You raise an interesting question Alex. 

I think we all know that Oregon has never been a "coaching up" school. That doesn't mean that Oregon never had any great players. It just means that either the player has what it takes before getting to Oregon or he/she wont be one. Oregon does not coach players to greatness. 

Justin Herbert was a great player surrounded by mostly mediocre players and coaches. Keep in mind that it takes more then one great offensive lineman to help a QB achieve greatness. 

In the NFL Justin has the opportunity to become someone special at the Chargers. To try and achieve that the Chargers ownership has brought in a new head coach to bring that to light. We will have to wait to see it that will happen but I have to question if the Chargers ownership itself is capable of producing a championship organization. After all it's had plenty of time to do so in the past, but sank to a No. 6 draft pick in the first round. 

The Chargers Ownership has made mistakes in the past like it's move out of the San Diego area into LA. And it's keeping of it's QB, Rivers all these years, one who has always been just one step above mediocracy but never great.

Keep in mind that Justin Herberts winning of the NFL rookie of the year award was done on his own merits not the organizations. 

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Yeah, I'm fine with the way it worked out, looking at Burrow's college play in total shows that in 2019, a "System" quarterback , won the Heisman. It was a great system under Brady at LSU, but that season was a complete outlier for Burrow. In the NFL, he was having a good season as the No. 1 pick of the Bengals before he was injured, but nothing even close to the record setting season, No. 6 pick Herbert was having for the Chargers. 

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I think we all can agree that going further in the draft is the best thing for Herbert or any young QB. You get to a team that doesn't necessarily need the QB to be ready to play and usually has some O line and D to ensure the QB doesn't get hammered into an injury mired career. Herbert's success does appear to prove that Oregon doesn't coach up players. The greats have that drive/ability and the rest are just good/average team players. I hope to see Herbert (and Mariota) play for as long as he's able. Good guys are not always featured in sports so I try to root for them as much as possible.

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5 hours ago, BigDucksFan said:

I think we all know that Oregon has never been a "coaching up" school.

I think this is a remarkable week, in that I disagree with my friend and moderator, BigDucksFan twice now.  Prior to Cristobal/Taggart's recruiting...Oregon was only known as a school that coached them up, because so few great players were recruited.  Raw, three-star athletes were coached up and often would go onto the NFL and play.

In the defensive backfield alone with just a few examples....I recall a walk-on corner who earned a scholarship, and then went on to being an outstanding safety at Oregon and now has a Super Bowl ring from Denver as T.J. Ward had a long NFL career. 

I remember when the recruiting ended a Troy Hill was gained, then lost and then got back to Oregon.  I did not care, as I knew nothing about him, and he was just another 3-Star defensive back, and if we got him--fine.  He started for the Rams again this season and had three touchdowns attributed to him.

That same year....we signed another 3-Star defensive back that I figured we did not need, and Terrence Mitchell has been starting for a couple of years in the NFL for the Browns.

There are so many examples of players being coached up at Oregon...that I could take all day.  The point is--these are examples of players coached way-up beyond what anyone thought was possible.  What has happened with player development is a phenomenon of the current coaching regime, but not under Mike Bellotti, Rich Brooks or Chip.

Troy Hill knocks away a pass2_Amazing Moments Photography.jpg

                               Troy Hill knocks away a pass...

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Mr. FishDuck

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3 minutes ago, Charles Fischer said:

I think this is a remarkable week, in that I disagree with my friend and moderator, BigDucksFan twice now.  Prior to Cristobal/Taggart's recruiting...Oregon was only known as a school that coached them up, because so few great players were recruited.  Raw, three-star athletes were coached up and often would go onto the NFL and play.

In the defensive backfield alone with just a few examples....I recall a walk-on corner who earned a scholarship, and then went on to being an outstanding safety at Oregon and now has a Super Bowl ring from Denver as T.J. Ward had a long NFL career. 

I remember when the recruiting ended a Troy Hill was gained, then lost and then got back to Oregon.  I did not care, as I knew nothing about him, and he was just another 3-Star defensive back, and if we got him--fine.  He started for the Rams again this season and had three touchdowns attributed to him.

That same year....we signed another 3-Star defensive back that I figured we did not need, and Terrence Mitchell has been starting for a couple of years in the NFL for the Browns.

There are so many examples of players being coached up at Oregon...that I could take all day.  The point is--there are three examples of players coaches way-up beyond what anyone thought was possible.  What happened with player development is a phenomenon of the current coaching regime, but not under Mike Bellotti, Rich Brooks or Chip.

 

Troy Hill knocks away a pass2_Amazing Moments Photography.jpg

                               Troy Hill knocks away a pass...

Again let me reiterate that players that become great have it in them before they arrive at Oregon. Not all great college players make it big in the NFL, MM is an example along with LMJ. And a lot of not so great players also make it to the NFL. I don't consider the NFL a measure of greatness. 

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I agree with 30Ducks.

Comparing different team's qb's is akin to comparing ... well, Ducks to Tigers.  They are both animals but live in different realms.  The goal for everyone in football is to win.  With Burrow at the helm of the Tigers, they had that generational season of 15-0 and Burrow thrived in the Brady system.  The Ducks under Herbert's qb'ing, launched a 12-2 season.  Did Herbert not thrive?  Different qb's in different systems, on different teams with different players, in different leagues.  Meaningful comparisons become a little lost. 

And To say Herbert wasn't "coached up" based upon Burrow's output or Herbert's professional vs. college systems stats is also subject to the same comparative folly.  He was certainly "coached up" on the system he played in.  To further the point, offensive systems certainly do vary from team to team...from OC to OC.  But the goal is always to best utilize the TEAM as best as possible with the best available players.  To try to slot players into systems where they fail to perform at their best or cannot master is likely a ticket to failure and Coordinator replacement.

I know you all want to go back to the high flying Kelly offenses.  It was SO entertaining.  But, in my mind, this system is doing just fine with the players the Ducks have at hand.  And for a little further proof...that great system at LSU packed a flopper of a 5-5 record last year.  5-5.  Not so "coached up"?

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13 minutes ago, BigDucksFan said:

Again let me reiterate that players that become great have it in them before they arrive at Oregon

Okay, I will ask you, as you're making this an indictment against Oregon, who are the players at all the other schools that weren't great before they showed up, but were coached up? Does Alabama do this? Ohio State, Clemson? Was Mahomes coached up at Texas Tech?

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If Herbert didn't end up at Oregon he probably would have ended up an Eagle, not a Tiger. No big program wanted Herbert, much like Josh Allen. Both of these qb's struggled because of coaching, but more importantly they struggled because of the receivers they had to throw to.

Burrow won the Heisman, much like Johnny football, because he had the receivers who would catch anything. 

I support Cristobal's efforts at putting elite receivers in place to support the qb. I think we will see a better offense going forward, and the coaching will be just fine. With talent around him the qb will thrive, and a better running game will also help. 

The question I have is what would have happened to Herbert at EWU, a pass happy school? I think he probably would have been drafted about the same place. Herbert had all the tools when he came to Oregon. 

Another question is why did the baseball playing, talented qb's like Herbert and Allen fall through the cracks? One answer is they didn't attend all the elite camps where colleges are told who to recruit. The emphasis on this type of recruiting has to end. We need to get away from the one dimensional guys who have reached their peaks.

Again I support Cristobal going after elite talent to surround our qb's. I just wish we went after more diamonds in the rough, maybe the last scholarship player on our depth chart is that guy. That is why I still believe in Ashford, and want to see more qb's recruited who play more than football, and maybe didn't attend all the elite camps.

This is also why I get excited when I see some of our recruits were wrestlers, track guys, basketball players. We need guys who know how to play, and play in a broader sense than just the football field. This is also why I get extremely excited about JTT coming to Oregon, a true multi-sport athlete. My Sunday rant, thanks for reading. 

 

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What if Herbert had ended up at Oregon State, with their passing attack led by Coach Jonathan Smith?  Yikes....

Herbert in first half of CW_KC.jpg

Belay that!  I cannot picture that at all!  (Although his grandfather on one side was a star at Oregon State!)

Mr. FishDuck

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1 hour ago, Charles Fischer said:

What if Herbert had ended up at Oregon State,

giphy.gif

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And a picture of ace recruiter Scott Frost after signing Justin Herbertth.jpeg.a25024d6af6666621b869e4065c90be6.jpeg

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2 minutes ago, Haywarduck said:

ace recruiter Scott Frost

It's not so hard to recruit to Oregon when the kid lives next door. 

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16 hours ago, BigDucksFan said:

 You raise an interesting question Alex. 

I think we all know that Oregon has never been a "coaching up" school. That doesn't mean that Oregon never had any great players. It just means that either the player has what it takes before getting to Oregon or he/she wont be one. Oregon does not coach players to greatness. 

Justin Herbert was a great player surrounded by mostly mediocre players and coaches. Keep in mind that it takes more then one great offensive lineman to help a QB achieve greatness. 

In the NFL Justin has the opportunity to become someone special at the Chargers. To try and achieve that the Chargers ownership has brought in a new head coach to bring that to light. We will have to wait to see it that will happen but I have to question if the Chargers ownership itself is capable of producing a championship organization. After all it's had plenty of time to do so in the past, but sank to a No. 6 draft pick in the first round. 

The Chargers Ownership has made mistakes in the past like it's move out of the San Diego area into LA. And it's keeping of it's QB, Rivers all these years, one who has always been just one step above mediocracy but never great.

Keep in mind that Justin Herberts winning of the NFL rookie of the year award was done on his own merits not the organizations. 

"Coaching up" is a great way to put it. I truly hope you're right and the Chargers are able to extract all that talent that Herbert demonstrated in his rookie year. Let's hope Sewell somehow lands on the Chargers this offseason to protect an old friend on the next level.

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11 hours ago, Mudslide said:

I agree with 30Ducks.

Comparing different team's qb's is akin to comparing ... well, Ducks to Tigers.  They are both animals but live in different realms.  The goal for everyone in football is to win.  With Burrow at the helm of the Tigers, they had that generational season of 15-0 and Burrow thrived in the Brady system.  The Ducks under Herbert's qb'ing, launched a 12-2 season.  Did Herbert not thrive?  Different qb's in different systems, on different teams with different players, in different leagues.  Meaningful comparisons become a little lost. 

And To say Herbert wasn't "coached up" based upon Burrow's output or Herbert's professional vs. college systems stats is also subject to the same comparative folly.  He was certainly "coached up" on the system he played in.  To further the point, offensive systems certainly do vary from team to team...from OC to OC.  But the goal is always to best utilize the TEAM as best as possible with the best available players.  To try to slot players into systems where they fail to perform at their best or cannot master is likely a ticket to failure and Coordinator replacement.

I know you all want to go back to the high flying Kelly offenses.  It was SO entertaining.  But, in my mind, this system is doing just fine with the players the Ducks have at hand.  And for a little further proof...that great system at LSU packed a flopper of a 5-5 record last year.  5-5.  Not so "coached up"?

The loss of Joe Brady and all that talent on offense surely contributed to that tough 5-5 season. You're right, Kelly's time at Oregon was wonderfully entertaining, and although it would be lovely to see again, I think you're right in saying that the system is doing fine. I just hope Ty Thompson and the next era of Oregon football can find a way to make that next step.

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I'd have to agree with Charles. If one wanted to argue Oregon's reputation of "coaching up" players has taken a bit of a hit the last 3 seasons, I'd at least listen; but, under Bellotti and Chip (and even Helfrich), I'd suggests it is hard to support.

 

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I would argue that it may not be the lack of coaching up, it may be the fact we are recruiting kids who have reached their peak. When we recruit kids who have only played football, and have gone to all the camps they may not have much upside. In the past we recruited more diamonds in the rough.

Kids like Patrick Chung came in at 16, and few knew about him. There were plenty of kids like Patrick, but now we have the elite who everyone knows and the expectations are high.

The qb position has been a poster boy position for this trend. We use to only recruit kids who had talent and they became great with coaching and scheme. We now have kids come in with the hype they should just take over. This then lends itself to disappointment and the we don't coach up kids thinking, my two cents.

I will also say we are going to hit more homeruns with the elite talent. We just have to accept the flops and realize they just were over hyped. 

 

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