Pennsylvania Duck Moderator No. 1 Share Posted July 28, 2023 The move for Colorado won’t take place until 2024, but it will have ramifications that could impact the world of college football far sooner than that. For fans of the Oregon Ducks, this move by the Buffaloes has the potential to completely change their outlook for the future. Oregon is viewed as a national brand, and they don’t want to be left as the last standing man on the Titanic. It’s unclear what the Ducks are going to do in the future, but over the past few months — and few days — it’s becoming increasingly apparent that the Pac-12 is starting to whither away. There seems to be a strong notion that unless commissioner George Kliavkoff can deliver a media rights deal that far exceeds expectations — something that has never seemed less likely at the moment — major defectors could follow in Colorado’s footsteps. So looking ahead, what are some of the options that are available to Oregon, and what might the Pac-12 do in order to keep the ship afloat? We have a few ideas... Oregon Football: Where do the Ducks go with the Pac-12 headed for doom DUCKSWIRE.USATODAY.COM The Pac-12 is now the Pac-9. Where does the conference go from here? What should the Oregon Ducks do? We’ve got some... 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennsylvania Duck Author Moderator No. 2 Share Posted July 28, 2023 Matt Hayes: Colorado's exit probably won't be last domino to fall for crumbling Pac-12 All it took was 1 university president to get a good look under the hood and realize the Pac-12 is dead. Colorado made the first official move Thursday, announcing it would leave the Pac-12 for the Big 12, beginning in 2024. Now there’s only 1 question remaining. How quickly do other schools follow — and how long before the Pac-12 is no longer a Power 5 conference? “Everything is now in the Big 12’s court,” an industry source told Saturday Out West. “If they want to further expand West, that’s going to be a big problem for the Pac-12.” Because further Big12 expansion will eventually lead to Big Ten expansion. Hayes: Colorado’s exit probably won’t be last domino to fall for crumbling Pac-12 SATURDAYOUTWEST.COM Pac-12 commissioner George Kliavkoff keeps stalling and bluffing as his hand gets progressively worse. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJDuck Moderator No. 3 Share Posted July 28, 2023 Interesting, in the article PD posted, there is the section talking about Oregon's option joining the Big 12: "There have been rumors floating around that the Ducks and Washington Huskies were meeting with Big 12 presidents this week, potentially discussing a move. While we need to wait for things to be confirmed before sounding the alarm, I think that it is at least smart to consider a world in which Oregon heads to the Big 12 instead of the Big Ten." Did both Oregon and Washington actually talked with the Big 12? There was this article, already posted, stating of a rumor the other mystery school was outside of the 4 corner schools in the Pac-12. Pac-12 football: Who is the “mystery” program that could join Colorado? SATURDAYBLITZ.COM Another offseason, another wild round of realignment rumors. This time, it's Pac-12 football that looks to be disbanding amid uncertainties in the con... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennsylvania Duck Author Moderator No. 4 Share Posted July 28, 2023 The following article includes comments from ACC Commissioner Jim Phillips yesterday. I know some of you have talked about a coast to coast conference with the ACC. This article might be of interest to you. ACC continuing to look at possible expansion, commissioner says As Colorado becomes the latest domino to fall in college football realignment, ACC commissioner Jim Phillips said the league continues to actively consider adding teams but has not found enough value in any expansion option. Phillips told ESPN on Thursday that he's closely monitoring the Pac-12's issues landing a new TV deal and routinely examining how realignment can shift the ACC's position in the Power 5's financial hierarchy. "The ACC has been and remains highly engaged in looking at anything that makes us a better and stronger conference," Phillips told ESPN. "We've spent considerable time on expansion to see if there is anything that fits. We have a tremendous group of institutions but if there was something that made us better, we would absolutely be open to it." While expansion had not been a favored option, Colorado's move could alter that landscape. ACC continuing to look at possible expansion, commissioner says - ESPN WWW.ESPN.COM ACC commissioner Jim Phillips said the league continues to actively consider adding teams but has thus far not found enough... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lownslowav8r No. 5 Share Posted July 28, 2023 (edited) Interesting to think how where a person is located might affect their conference views. West coasters prefer Oregon in a west coast conference? Midwesterners and those on the east want Oregon in a Midwest or Eastern conference? The west coast PAC is not dead (yet) and many Oregon fans want the west coast Oregon team to stay where it fits culturally and geographically. Oregon football is not a soulless corporate entity that can move anywhere. It is an important part of a university, a university that is very much embedded within the ethos of the west coast and of western Oregon, specifically. in many ways Colorado returning home highlights the importance of culture and fit. Yes money played a role, but so did returning to their roots (along with moving to a weaker football conference where they might be able to compete). Edited July 28, 2023 by lownslowav8r 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennsylvania Duck Author Moderator No. 6 Share Posted July 28, 2023 Jon Gold: Winners and losers from Colorado's defection to the Big 12 From a public relations standpoint, Big 12 commissioner Brett Yormark might as well have dropped the mic on Thursday in a statement announcing Colorado’s return to the conference it called home for 62 years. There is no greater winner in this round of deck shuffling than the new Big 12 commissioner, who has been on the job for less than a year. And, of course, anyone who follows the Pac-12 knows the biggest loser in this debacle, even if George Kliavkoff is taking too much of the blame. Those are just two of the many, many people impacted by yet another landmark move in college sports. Here’s a look at the winners and losers of the Buffaloes’ bounce back to the Big 12… Gold: Winners and losers from Colorado’s defection to the Big 12 SATURDAYOUTWEST.COM Just go ahead and crown Brett Yormark after one of the absolute coups of the offseason. Oh, and if you've got a dunce cap, we... 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJDuck Moderator No. 7 Share Posted July 28, 2023 Pac-12 fans deserve better from leadership Colorado’s departure is latest in a long string of fumbling from Pac-12 leaders Pac-12 fans deserve better from leadership WWW.DESERET.COM Colorado’s reported departure from the Pac-12 Conference to the Big 12 is latest in a long string of fumbling from Pac-12 leaders. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kamikaze Kid Moderator No. 8 Share Posted July 28, 2023 Loser: Pac-12 presidents "You’ve got to wonder what the leaders of the 9 remaining Pac-12 teams are thinking right now, with the walls crumbling around them. I picture a bunch of old men in top hats and monocles and women with long cigarettes and primped hair commiserating over martinis and high test scores. Sure, Stanford is in a better position than Iowa State. But the Cyclones feel a lot more stable right now." This right here. Right now the Pac story line should be about five top 25 teams, three possible Heisman QBs, half the conference having some of the most explosive offenses in the country. All exciting stuff that could drive interest and viewership up. But instead the talk is the imminent demise of the Pac and the laughable elitism of the Pac presidents that have just taken a pie to the face by the cow pokes and farmers in the B12. I have really wanted the Pac to stay together and weather the storm with the UO leading the way. But it's becoming nearly impossible to not just shake your head and turn away and hope the Ducks land on their feet some way some how. It still might come through in the end but it's looking more like a last second hail Marry will be required than the slow steady march down field they're trying to perform. 3 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Joseph Moderator No. 9 Share Posted July 28, 2023 On 7/28/2023 at 11:45 AM, lownslowav8r said: Interesting to think how where a person is located might affect their conference views. West coasters prefer Oregon in a west coast conference? Midwesterners and those on the east want Oregon in a Midwest or Eastern conference? The west coast PAC is not dead (yet) and many Oregon fans want the west coast Oregon team to stay where it fits culturally and geographically. Oregon football is not a soulless corporate entity that can move anywhere. It is an important part of a university, a university that is very much embedded within the ethos of the west coast and of western Oregon, specifically. in many ways Colorado returning home highlights the importance of culture and fit. Yes money played a role, but so did returning to their roots (along with moving to a weaker football conference where they might be able to compete). Great take. Compared to the B12 the geography is problematic but the ACC is a far better fit than the B12. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Joseph Moderator No. 10 Share Posted July 28, 2023 On 7/28/2023 at 11:58 AM, NJDuck said: Pac-12 fans deserve better from leadership Colorado’s departure is latest in a long string of fumbling from Pac-12 leaders Pac-12 fans deserve better from leadership WWW.DESERET.COM Colorado’s reported departure from the Pac-12 Conference to the Big 12 is latest in a long string of fumbling from Pac-12 leaders. Better leadership or simply leadership? Leaders do not get sucker punched more than once. If this guy can't show us the money then can GK and bring in Jim Delaney or Bob Bowlsby as a temporary replacement? 2 guys who actually have experience running a conference and experience with media deal negotiations and conference expansion. The guy we hired from Harvard had no college administrative experience and was a complete and costly failure so let's hire an unqualified guy from Boston University. Brilliant! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lownslowav8r No. 11 Share Posted July 28, 2023 Do OBD readers really think the PAC university presidents are that different than the university presidents of other football schools? I highly doubt it. They are all shaped by the academic environment in which they learned their craft. Most of the current presidents weren’t around when Scott was hired and enabled. Those Scott tenure presidents deserve a lot of scorn for their stupidity, including USC’s Folt who was instrumental in many of the PAC’s worse decisions. The same Folt who is now lauded as a genius for moving USC to another conference. Given her long run of poor decision making maybe this move will not turn out to be a genius decision in the long run, hmmm? I was originally pretty upset with PAC leadership, but as I’ve learned more this has become tempered. Colorado has been "wobbly" on staying in the PAC for months. PAC leadership knew this as did many sports writers I trust who somehow thought this was not worth mentioning. Colorado was wobbly because they were drawn to going back to conference they called home for 62 years, a conference where they think they will "fit" and thus thrive in the future. Maybe there is a lesson there for those of us who think that moving to a new conference is a simple decision based upon money and media exposure where cultural, academic, and geographical fit plays little role. 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tandaian No. 12 Share Posted July 28, 2023 I'm probably the last person not to think the sky is falling, but I'm going to wait and see what the TV deal is. From a perspective standpoint Big 12 is doing better than the PAC at the moment, but I'm not really all that hyped about Cincinnati, BYU, Houston, UCF and Colorado. Once they are P5 schools do they increase their value and the Big 12 value? They definitely could. Today, they don't move the needle. It looks like the Big 12 is doing something, which is way more than what it looks like the PAC is doing, but we won't really know until 5-10 years down the line. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Joseph Moderator No. 13 Share Posted July 28, 2023 On 7/28/2023 at 12:53 PM, lownslowav8r said: Do OBD readers really think the PAC university presidents are that different than the university presidents of other football schools? I highly doubt it. They are all shaped by the academic environment in which they learned their craft. Most of the current presidents weren’t around when Scott was hired and enabled. Those Scott tenure presidents deserve a lot of scorn for their stupidity, including USC’s Folt who was instrumental in many of the PAC’s worse decisions. The same Folt who is now lauded as a genius for moving USC to another conference. Given her long run of poor decision making maybe this move will not turn out to be a genius decision in the long run, hmmm? I was originally pretty upset with PAC leadership, but as I’ve learned more this has become tempered. Colorado has been "wobbly" on staying in the PAC for months. PAC leadership knew this as did many sports writers I trust who somehow thought this was not worth mentioning. Colorado was wobbly because they were drawn to going back to conference they called home for 62 years, a conference where they think they will "fit" and thus thrive in the future. Maybe there is a lesson there for those of us who think that moving to a new conference is a simple decision based upon money and media exposure where cultural, academic, and geographical fit plays little role. I like the take but I think Pac presidents are day and night different from their counterparts in the SEC. Had the SEC presidents made the decision to add the B12 orphans expansion into the Central time zone would have been a slam dunk and SEC commissioner Greg Sankey if the commissioner of the Pac would have insisted on adding the B12 schools and would not have bent over for the duplicitous Carol Folt, or later in the day, be sucker punched by Kevin Warren. Long ago SEC presidents figured out that a Rising Tide lifts all boats. Figured out that they are managing a big business when it comes to sports and not a lemonade stand. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Fischer Administrator No. 14 Share Posted July 28, 2023 On 7/28/2023 at 9:53 AM, lownslowav8r said: Maybe there is a lesson there for those of us who think that moving to a new conference is a simple decision based upon money and media exposure where cultural, academic, and geographical fit plays little role. Amen Duck-Buddy. Is the B1G a cultural fit for Oregon? 1 Mr. FishDuck Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennsylvania Duck Author Moderator No. 15 Share Posted July 28, 2023 Oregon needs the Big Ten, but the Big Ten might need Oregon just as badly In the history of the United States, there have been war-time presidents and peace-time presidents; leaders who are aggressive and ready to take action to protect the future of the nation, and leaders who are good at negotiating and offering comfort to all of their constituents. Rob Mullens, John Karl Scholz — which side do you more align yourselves with? For the University of Oregon, it appears that things are moving from a nice decade of peace into a period of war that will leave many teams behind and feinding for themselves while others jump ship for cushy spots in new conferences. By all means it appears that the Pac-12 is a sinking ship right now, and the remaining nine teams in the conference have to be looking for a landing spot should they choose to jump. For the Ducks, a perfect dismount would see Oregon as the newest member of the Big Ten, following a path blazed by the USC Trojans and UCLA Bruins. We know that the Ducks would desperately love to join that conference, but many think that the Big Ten might not want Oregon. Former commissioner Kevin Warren was interested in further expanding west, but new commissioner Tony Petitti has pumped the brakes. I think that they not only should want the Ducks, but they may need them just as badly as Oregon needs the Big Ten. Let me explain. Oregon needs the Big Ten, but the Big Ten needs Oregon just as badly DUCKSWIRE.USATODAY.COM A perfect outcome for Oregon is a seat at the table next to USC and UCLA. The Big Ten may need to jump on that while they... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haywarduck No. 16 Share Posted July 28, 2023 Not sure the sky is falling, but the ability to see anything clearly will take a while. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
OhioDuck No. 17 Share Posted July 28, 2023 Okay, I went on vacation for a few weeks, thinking the PAC had a pretty good media deal to be announced soon and I come back and Colorado is leaving and everyone is saying the sky is falling. Can't you folks take care of things for me for just a few weeks.LOL Seriously, a few questions. What has happened to the media deal? If Colorado is the only one to go, is it that big a loss? If no one else leaves, would Oregon be any better off in the Big 12 as the PAC? I really don't know the answers to these questions. I guess we'll all find out soon. I'm hoping the PAC survives with Oregon in it. The Big slow and ugly 10 is just that and once Texas and OK are gone the Big 12 is not all that impressive. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DUCKED No. 18 Share Posted July 28, 2023 On 7/28/2023 at 12:40 PM, cartm25 said: It's the "hay bale toss" crowd that watches football on Saturdays, and less so the swanky winery crowd from the West Coast . . . IMO. I'd prefer a conference in a region with a culture of loving college football over a region apathetic to football. As far as football goes, yes, The Big Ten is a cultural fit. If the Big Ten were to invite the Ducks and offered a boatload of money, how much of a factor would cultural fit really be? Would it be a deal killer? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pastatot No. 19 Share Posted July 28, 2023 On 7/28/2023 at 1:01 PM, OhioDuck said: What has happened to the media deal? If Colorado is the only one to go, is it that big a loss? If no one else leaves, would Oregon be any better off in the Big 12 as the PAC? I wonder if there has ever been a media deal. We have been promised repeatedly that it's coming and it's going to be great. I'm sorry, I stopped believing that Santa Claus is coming down that chimney. The loss of CU is by itself not a big deal. But how do we cope with not having enough teams for NEXT YEAR'S TV Schedule? Sure, we'd love the Big Ten, we'd love the SEC, we'd love the chance to compete for national titles with teams that have equal resources with the best in the business, but if they don't give us an invite, what do we do? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maebee No. 20 Share Posted July 28, 2023 “What has happened to the media deal? If Colorado is the only one to go, is it that big a loss? If no one else leaves, would Oregon be any better off in the Big 12 as the PAC? I really don't know the answers to these questions. I guess we'll all find out soon. I'm hoping the PAC survives with Oregon in it. The Big slow and ugly 10 is just that and once Texas and OK are gone the Big 12 is not all thatimpressive. “ we’re still waiting on the media deal, the likes of Colorado could easily be replaced if the powers that be can come up with half way decent deal. Why all these reporters continue to insist that Oregon can’t wait to join the B10 is a head scratcher. But we are in show me the money phase and so far it’s a no show Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lownslowav8r No. 21 Share Posted July 29, 2023 On 7/28/2023 at 10:31 AM, Jon Joseph said: Had the SEC presidents made the decision to add the B12 orphans expansion into the Central time zone would have been a slam dunk and SEC commissioner Greg Sankey if the commissioner of the Pac would have insisted on adding the B12 schools and would not have bent over for the duplicitous Carol Folt, or later in the day, be sucker punched by Kevin Warren. Very true, but my understanding is that almost all those presidents are gone. The turnover has been immense maybe because university boards realized the old presidents needed to go. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Log Haulin No. 22 Share Posted July 29, 2023 On 7/28/2023 at 11:24 AM, Charles Fischer said: Amen Duck-Buddy. Is the B1G a cultural fit for Oregon? Outside of the I-5 corridor, most of the State could transition seamlessly in the midwest and NE regions of this nation. I would love to play Ohio st. MICH, Penn State USC and Washington regularly. Home and homes. Way better football. Traditions are of more value in my heart though. Super sad the Pac 12 fans find themselves in this position. Does cow manure start with a "B"? Oregon is an athletic school. It is the #1 priority at the university. B1G would be lucky to have Oregon. Wash for that matter as well. Moore would be a freshman at Oregon if Duck where B1G when he declared. No doubt in my mind. But yea... B1G conf would be a perfect fit. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Joseph Moderator No. 23 Share Posted July 29, 2023 On 7/28/2023 at 4:21 PM, DUCKED said: As far as football goes, yes, The Big Ten is a cultural fit. If the Big Ten were to invite the Ducks and offered a boatload of money, how much of a factor would cultural fit really be? Would it be a deal killer? Not just football from an academician's POV. (Do academics mean anything anymore in big-time CFB?) 7 of the Pac-9 schools are AAU member schools. Come 2024, 15 of the 16 schools in the B1G will be AAU member schools. The only outlier is Nebraska which was an AAU member when it joined the B1G and likely would not have been extended an invitation without being an AAU member. The B1G can't defeat, in general, the SEC on the field, court, diamond, track, golf course, etc., so academics matter as a way to claim superiority over the SEC. The SEC will have 5 AAU members out of 16 schools come 2024. Of course, this is the kind of flawed thinking that allows one to make flawed business decisions such as deciding not to put the B12 to sleep. From a personal perspective, I can attest that 2 fellow alums of mine were C students; one formed Subway, and the other formed Netflix. And let's not forget that 2 Harvard dropouts almost took down IBM. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennsylvania Duck Author Moderator No. 24 Share Posted July 29, 2023 If the Pac-12 wants to expand, here's who they should target There are a lot of things that the Pac-12 Conference can do going forward in the wake of losing the Colorado Buffaloes to the Big 12 Conference, but what seems to be the consensus thought is that commissioner George Kliavkoff needs to do what he can to add some new members as quickly as possible. With the defect of Colorado and the departure of USC and UCLA a year ago, the Pac-12 has shrunken down to a Pac-9 over the last 13 months. In order to stabilize, they need to add one new member at the very least, and potentially three new members in order to get back to relative strength. So who might they go after? Here are a few options... Pac-12 Football: 10 expansion candidates should Pac-12 look to grow DUCKSWIRE.USATODAY.COM In order to stabilize, it’s pretty clear that the Pac-12 Conference needs to expand. Here are some candidates for them to bring in. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Joseph Moderator No. 25 Share Posted July 29, 2023 On 7/29/2023 at 9:29 AM, Pennsylvania Duck said: If the Pac-12 wants to expand, here's who they should target There are a lot of things that the Pac-12 Conference can do going forward in the wake of losing the Colorado Buffaloes to the Big 12 Conference, but what seems to be the consensus thought is that commissioner George Kliavkoff needs to do what he can to add some new members as quickly as possible. With the defect of Colorado and the departure of USC and UCLA a year ago, the Pac-12 has shrunken down to a Pac-9 over the last 13 months. In order to stabilize, they need to add one new member at the very least, and potentially three new members in order to get back to relative strength. So who might they go after? Here are a few options... Pac-12 Football: 10 expansion candidates should Pac-12 look to grow DUCKSWIRE.USATODAY.COM In order to stabilize, it’s pretty clear that the Pac-12 Conference needs to expand. Here are some candidates for them to bring in. How do you write expansion checks when you have no money in the till? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HappyToBeADuck No. 26 Share Posted July 29, 2023 Some great comments in this thread. You can sense or feel the passion, hurt, anger and disappointment flowing thru the OBDF members First I must apologize to Dodd, Swaimm and some Forum posters for their insite on the CU move to the the 12. This apology should have come sooner but i had so many crows in my humble pie that it took 3 days to eat....... I guess at CU when your leadership team says, we are firmly committed to staying in the PAC until we see the media deal that they are not true to their word. However, CU may have drawn a line in the sand for something concrete by PAC 9 Media Days for details on the media deal. We can feel confident GK did not have enough substance to share and it was the last straw for CU........ IMHumblePieO, CU was looking to leave anyway and thats okay. Things just didnt workout for CU. Rocky Mountain High didnt blend well with Pacific Ocean Uppitty. I wish them the best going forward....... We learned a few things this week, too: ■ CU does not enhance the 12. The 12 has ZERO star brands. ■ The PAC was not enhanced by CU as a member ■ This Monday not much has changed for the PAC or the 12 compared to last Monday. The 12 gets nothing by adding CU and now 9 teams dont have a media deal. ■ SMU and the DFW market would be an upgrade over CU. ■ The only Star Power Brands between the 2 conferences are the Ducks and huskies. With the Utes rising fast. The Utes need a Rose Bowl or NY6 WIN...... As long as those 3 schools stay intact the PAC survives. If they don't, survival at the P5 level will be difficult for OSU and WSU. If, by some change of heart, the BIG invites (remember you need to be invited) UO and UW, then they will extend an invite to Stanford and CAL That wraps up all the major West Coast TV markets for FOX. Thus shutting out the financially strapped, ESPN. At this point Utah, UA and ASU get their invite to the 12. OSU and WSU are off to the MWC. If those 3 schools stay the PAC will survive. The only silver lining with CU leaving is that the PAC needs a 10th school before 2024 schedules must be announced. Maybe this will force the PAC leadership to do something. Of course, its difficult to bring in a new member without a media deal. You cant tell your new partner about the P5 money without a deal. The PAC can and will survive with some good decision making and good leadership. They have neither..... 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DUCKED No. 27 Share Posted August 3, 2023 On 7/29/2023 at 5:34 AM, Jon Joseph said: Not just football from an academician's POV. (Do academics mean anything anymore in big-time CFB?) 7 of the Pac-9 schools are AAU member schools. Come 2024, 15 of the 16 schools in the B1G will be AAU member schools. The only outlier is Nebraska which was an AAU member when it joined the B1G and likely would not have been extended an invitation without being an AAU member. The B1G can't defeat, in general, the SEC on the field, court, diamond, track, golf course, etc., so academics matter as a way to claim superiority over the SEC. The SEC will have 5 AAU members out of 16 schools come 2024. Of course, this is the kind of flawed thinking that allows one to make flawed business decisions such as deciding not to put the B12 to sleep. From a personal perspective, I can attest that 2 fellow alums of mine were C students; one formed Subway, and the other formed Netflix. And let's not forget that 2 Harvard dropouts almost took down IBM. My college roommate went to Boalt, and after first year realized it wasn't so hard after all, so he screwed around, got C's, then passed the bar and soon after decided being a lawyer sucked. Started a business, hired a bunch of B-student lawyers.....and made a fortune. Not exactly Subway and Netflix, but still. I hope "business people" will be consulted, and listened to, before Oregon makes a final decision. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
