Is Ignorance a Good Excuse? (For Anything)

[Charles Fischer]

Many of you out there in this community are attorneys, and perhaps you can tell me how much slack people get with the law when,..."I did not know it was against the law."  ?? Would love your thoughts...

 

For the rest of life...how do YOU feel when people say that?  I'm not referring to not knowing facts of news events, but of knowing the law, or the rules of how things operate where you work or within the organizations you belong to.  When they state "ignorance," how to you feel about it...how do you react?

 

As you can imagine...I run into that a TON here in this forum.  I have very clear rules that has taken me over four years to create and refine, and yet someone will sign up and immediately post something that violates two rules right-off-the-bat and they get offended when I bring it to their attention privately by email.  (We do not embarrass people in public here)

 

"But I didn't know about your rules!"

 

So you did not notice the reference three times in registration process, the PM and email sent to you about it when you signed up, and it says right up at the top of the site that we are different....you did not notice any of that?  So no need to even skim through the rules?

 

Right.

 

As you can imagine....I get this a lot and with all the work and expense I put in--I am not sympathetic at all, and they are shocked at that.  Well, I was sympathetic the first one hundred times, but not anymore as it gets old.

 

I'm curious as to how YOU deal with it.  Any advice for me?

 

Mr. FishDuck

[Tandaian]

No matter how many times you put things in front of people in the computer world, people look for the way to get to the next page/screen.  The only way you might get people to read your rules, would be to have a 1 question quiz.  Even then people likely won't really believe you are serious with your rules.

[30Duck]

I dealt with that often in the Navy. As a cook particularly when it came to breakfast. The menu was clear, "No exceptions" But, of course every day, sailor after sailor would want 2 eggs instead of 3, bacon instead of sausage, and of course it was even more fun when on Masters At Arms duty, some sailors who were eager to leave the ship, and some who had trouble returning, couldn't remember how it's done. For those who couldn't remember where the aircraft carrier was parked, that was another deal altogether.

 

Rules that are expected to be followed are not hard to find, especially here.

[Charles Fischer]

On 2/25/2022 at 1:23 PM, 30Duck said:

For those who couldn't remember where the aircraft carrier was parked, that was another deal altogether.

OK...now THAT took me back and made me laugh! 

 

                  Where did they hide it?

 

 

[Badwater]

Rules notwithstanding, there seems to be an awful large percentage of people on social media that simply don't know how to communicate respectfully to others. I keep nasty comments in private, but I come from a different generation; a generation where if you said something nasty, be prepared to fight. Polite decorum sure seems in short supply these days.

[Flyin Vee]

 Can I be banned for telling you your header banner Bruin blue clashes with duck green? Pea green is not in the duck color wheel.

[Charles Fischer]

On 2/25/2022 at 3:42 PM, Flyin Vee said:

 Can I be banned for telling you your header banner Bruin blue clashes with duck green? Pea green is not in the duck color wheel.

How about people sending that kind of thing to my email for suggestions instead of hashing it out in public?    You don't see any of the conversations I have with people about post violations, banning or anything because I do it privately by email.  No need for embarrassment or be a buzz-kill to conversation.  Thus I prefer people to email me as well when they have beefs or suggestions.  charles@fishduck.com    Fair?

 

The Oregon color wheel has had every shade of green is seems, and to get the attention of posters....I cannot use colors in Pinned Posts that blend in.  It is tough enough getting people to read stuff, so I departed from Oregon colors a long time ago on the Pinned Posts that I'd like people to read.  If you use a variation of green?  It is not read...

 

So you will see orange, red, blue but not purple Pinned Posts!

[Duckdude]

It is a well known axiom of the law, etched in stone that: “Ignorance of the Law is no defense”

e.g. “I didn’t know that was against the law to drive 100 mph!”, “I didn’t know it was against the law to shoot my neighbor!”; “I didn’t know it was against the law to take your car”; “I didn’t know it was against the law(of common sense) to root for the Beavers!”

[Charles Fischer]

On 2/25/2022 at 4:45 PM, cartm25 said:

If they didn't read the rules, but were apologetic, that would be tolerable. No soup for those that didn't read the rules, break the rules, then complain.

Some will not complain, but simply say, "I did not know," and that is supposed to excuse it?  A few others will push back, and I take note of that since most violations are by repeat offenders--of which I'd rather prune out to reduce my workload.

 

But the vast majority here are very nice people who get it, apologize and we forget about it and move on.  Insult me in public like a fellow did the other day? (We caught the post quickly)  No discussion...I just banned him.  With all I do...I don't need to put up with that nonsense.  Got a beef?  People can email me, and we'll discuss it like gentlemen.

 

So no sweat, as most everyone here is great.  I'm just trying to refine it further to reduce the stress, nonsense, etc.

[Haywarduck]

I don't know how explicit you state this, but you don't need more posters, but want more civil discourse. Posters need you more than you need them.  People need to work harder, or want to be here more than you want them. Posters either need to fit right in, or be willing to work hard to fit in. I tend to fit into the second category, but enjoy the process.

 

This isn't your average community, much like a gated community with homeowners association rules. Some don't want anything to do with that type of set up. Some just want the benefits and like the idea as long as the rules don't apply to them. Fortunately it isn't that hard to get rid of violators.

 

I think you be extremely explicit this won't be an easy thing for most to belong too. If people want to work harder at this than you do then it will work out. A small minority will fit right in. I don't want to go too far down that rabbit hole, but I think our society tries to be too lenient with our laws. You don't need to, and if this becomes an exclusive club, the demand will actually skyrocket in my opinion. I actually think that is some of what is driving interest already.

 

You offer an affable playground in a discourteous world. If people want to belong they will have take their shoes off when they enter, keep their voice down, and wait their turn as they think about what to say to add to the conversation. This is your home, and it is a refuge from the outside world, but there has to be a lot of effort for many to take part. The fact this is going to take an extreme amount of effort on many peoples part has to be explicitly communicated right out of the gate. Posters have to want to be part, not just feel empowered by the civility.

[Jon Joseph]

The key to responsible and fruitful debate is to disagree without being disagreeable. This maxim is most certainly not original on my part. I believe it can be attributed to Cicero? 

 

I miss the days when Tip O'Neil and Ronald Reagan would often meet for a beer 'after work.' With no hand held cameras photographing them and no one attempting to listen into and thereafter immediately report what the two gentlemen discussed. Technology is always a two edged sword. Instant communication is in many ways a boon but social media has provided many the coward to criticize, often in invective language, without revealing the critic having the courage to reveal him/herself to the person being criticized. 

 

In general, of OBD Forum, I have found it to be the case that when posters stray intentionally or otherwise, including most certainly, moi, that a gentle nudge results in a mea culpa. If it results in a poster fleeing the scene; well. so be it.

 

 

[Charles Fischer]

On 2/26/2022 at 8:08 AM, Haywarduck said:

I don't know how explicit you state this, but you don't need more posters, but want more civil discourse. Posters need you more than you need them.  People need to work harder, or want to be here more than you want them. Posters either need to fit right in, or be willing to work hard to fit in. I tend to fit into the second category, but enjoy the process.

 

This isn't your average community, much like a gated community with homeowners association rules. Some don't want anything to do with that type of set up. Some just want the benefits and like the idea as long as the rules don't apply to them. Fortunately it isn't that hard to get rid of violators.

 

I think you be extremely explicit this won't be an easy thing for most to belong too. If people want to work harder at this than you do then it will work out. A small minority will fit right in. I don't want to go too far down that rabbit hole, but I think our society tries to be too lenient with our laws. You don't need to, and if this becomes an exclusive club, the demand will actually skyrocket in my opinion. I actually think that is some of what is driving interest already.

 

You offer an affable playground in a discourteous world. If people want to belong they will have take their shoes off when they enter, keep their voice down, and wait their turn as they think about what to say to add to the conversation. This is your home, and it is a refuge from the outside world, but there has to be a lot of effort for many to take part. The fact this is going to take an extreme amount of effort on many peoples part has to be explicitly communicated right out of the gate. Posters have to want to be part, not just feel empowered by the civility.

This is an incredibly helpful post Haywarduck, a powerful one.  On one hand we don't know more, but the truth is....there is always turnover and you need to attract more good people on a regular basis.  Thus why I am trying to adjust the standards of how we post titles and linked articles to get Google listings.  (More on that another time)

 

Your post was epic as describing what we have here....and I think I might just "borrow" parts of it for the opening communications people get from me when they register.  (If you do not mind)

 

Thanks a ton...

[Duck 1972]

As a minority poster for certain topics I have been having a hard time not being sarcastic sometimes. It's hard sometimes remembering in this situation it's not "you" people are disagreeing with,  but just your opinion.

 

In my upbringing sarcasm was a way to protect myself. I'm now a greybeard and even though I know in my heart and mind it doesn't work will never work sometimes my negative emotions get the best of me and I slip back into old habits.

 

That's why this site is so important to me. I've become isolated from general conversation so I need this place more than any of you know. It's not just about sports but helping me stay grounded. I can learn from anything and try to everyday.

 

So thank you Charles and the forum with decorum.

 

Oh by the way;  Go Ducks Fly High

[PittDuck]

On 2/26/2022 at 8:08 AM, Haywarduck said:

…You offer an affable playground in a discourteous world. 

Hayward nailed it with his post!

 

… and Charles, we who visit your site regularly appreciate what you have created and share with us.  A safe haven for Duck fans to learn more about OBD.

 

Well done sir, well done indeed.

[Pennsylvania Duck]

Hello Charles. I am a pretty new member, just two weeks. However, I visited the site many times prior to joining. One of the reasons I wanted to join was the result of your rules. I didn't want a site like Facebook where people would get into nasty arguments and name calling which resulted in making a discussion impossible. I like how different views can be expressed and everyone stays civil here!  It's ok to agree to disagree.

 

Since you run the site and put in all the time and effort for us, you do whatever you feel is right. You seem like a fair person to me. This site needs a certain type of person for membership in order for it to run correctly and if someone can't follow the rules, ban them and don't look back. Stress is not good for your health!

[Charles Fischer]

On 2/26/2022 at 6:29 PM, Pennsylvania Duck said:

One of the reasons I wanted to join was the result of your rules

You are very kind, and you summarize what I am trying to achieve.  To see that sentence above....makes my heart sing, because YOU are the type of person I wish to have as members on this forum.  With hope, the word will get out for the reasonable people to congregate here and have even bigger discussions about Our Beloved Ducks.

 

My sincere thanks for you taking the time to write.

 

[Charles Fischer]

I do appreciate all that everyone has written, and if you have any solutions to the mystery as to how to deal with those who say, "I did not know the rules," I would be grateful for that feedback.  I wrote about it in the opening post of this thread, and...I'm not sure how to contend with it.  I cannot let them off, yet if they ignored the rules or quickly signed up and posted without looking...

 

...I would appear to be, as they said in "Calvin," as an over-bearing bore who thinks he is the Supreme Ruler, the Great Grandiose Dictator-for-Life.  (That is kinda catchy)  

 

But it all begins with them, and they don't see it.  My management style is friendly, but firm on the things that matter.  Oh well...

 

                   Did Somebody call me?

[woundedknees]

How simple do the rules need to be?

 

I was in charge of training a a group of men to operate large, precision equipment for grinding steel (We manufactured saws, in this case,  band saws up to 60' long, and 16" wide.).

 

A huge part of that is SAFETY PROCEDURES... duh.

 

Some of those involve proper use of the proper tools, and good maintenance practices... Again, duh.

 

You would probably be shocked how many potentially crippling injuries I witnessed over a 20+ year career that involved little things like not replacing a screw with a worn Allen head, or wearing safety glasses around the grinding wheel... Or even reporting what should have been a minor bit of grit in an eye (we had trained first aid staff, as well as an eye wash station in the immediate area).

 

In that particular case, the guy was in a hurry to leave for Thanksgiving weekend,  and returned to work, the following Monday  with both eyes swollen shut with infection,  and argued when I  insisted he go to the ER.

 

The doctor told me it was bad enough the employee would have lost vision in both eyes, permanently, in a very brief time.

 

To top it off, when the injured party filled out his incident report, and wassubsequently interviewed by OSHA, his explanation was Thai failed to properly train him, and he didn't notice the multiple warning signs in the area.

 

STICK TO YOUR GUNS, Charles!

[Charles Fischer]

Wow, what a great story from your life.  Whew!

 

The conclusion of your story is similar to many of mine and that is, in the end, their misbehavior ends up being MY fault.

 

Yours was so much more serious, but the concept and the mindset is the same. I guess we cannot change human nature!

 

 Thanks for feedback…

[DimpleDucks]

All the comments here are very helpful, and I'll just add my two cents for consideration.

 

We live in a world where accountability by many is absent. You already know that, and by having a forum which then requires not only accountability but a good measure of communication skills, it's automatically going to come up against a wall of opposition. You can't let this surprise you and bring you down. You can't waste your time trying to teach the masses how to post here. You have been asking people to work on their communication skills and many have responded, which is great and is something to be proud of. Focus on that! 

 

So, rely on your rules and forget the rest. Don't spend time and energy trying to explain yourself. Don't let it emotionally drain you. And don't get suckered into taking it personally. Having had my own blog and participated in many, I know that's easier said than done, but it's absolutely necessary to keep yourself from burning out for the wrong reasons. There is no reason to engage a dialog that states: "but I didn't know the rules".

 

When my oldest son was a pre-teen, he would frequently try to argue his way into getting his way. I heard his views and he knew mine, but on "the rules" and some decisions, my views trumped his. He often tried to trap me in the arguments that went on and on and often repeated with hooks to get me to explain again. It was draining. I found the only way to move on was for him to see I wasn't rattled, and my decision/rules would stand. I then changed the subject. I didn't allow myself to get pulled back into the drama.

 

This forum is unique and insightful, and may it continue!  

[Drake]

Ignoring information (established rules/guidelines) gives someone an easy excuse for actions that are harmful. Whether the claim is true, or false is really not the problem.

The problem is not enforcing the rules and guidelines that were ignored. Without enforcement chaos quickly follows. 
 

Thanks for your concerns, and to all that help maintain the civil nature of your website……Please keep up the good work.