Is That RIGHT? Prime Kicks Off a Player in Front of Team?

[Charles Fischer]

Interesting thing to ponder as things are slow; does it make sense to you to kick a player off the team in front of the entire team?  Below is a video of Prime while at Jackson State, where he did kick a player off at a team meeting. 

 

On one hand, I think it is in terrible taste...an example of Coach Sanders being about "me" again.  I do not recall other coaches anywhere doing this.  On the other hand.....

 

I've learned that the player had three violations of team rules, and frankly--I've also learned that the other members of a community need to know you mean business about your rules.  Doing so in public can deliver that message.

 

I see Pros and Cons to this one.  Your thoughts?

 

 

[Haywarduck]

He went undefeated in the regular season, seems like it worked. I won't question a coach's methods, especially with tough love. As long as it isn't physical or mental abuse, the tougher the better.                                                                                                                                                              

 

These young men need to know there is an equation that works in this world. Follow the rules and work you tail off, you will learn and grow. Break the rules, slack off and you will never know what you could have been. 

 

I also like he brought the players into the decision. When the players make a choice like that they are saying what is acceptable. This also plays out on the field too. I give kudos to Sanders, not to say he will be as successful at Boulder.

[DUCKED]

I think that’s wrong on many levels. To humiliate someone in public, in front of their peers, is unnecessary, and just another shameful example of Prime showboating.

 

Not to say the player should not have been dismissed. 
 

But that is not the way to go about it.

[Charles Fischer]

On 7/20/2023 at 8:41 AM, DUCKED said:

I think that’s wrong on many levels. To humiliate someone in public, in front of their peers, is unnecessary, and just another shameful example of Prime showboating.

 

Not to say the player should not have been dismissed. 
 

But that is not the way to go about it.

I am so torn on this; I think you make a great point, as part of teaching young men is demonstrating a class way of holding yourself.

 

Yet doing it in public can make discipline a whole lot easier in the future.

[Jon Joseph]

Beneath the flash and dash Sanders is old school. As he recently stated he would never coach in today's NFL that he believes is loaded with prima donnas. It's his way or the highway. It would be nice to know the rule(s) this player broke that resulted in the player being called out in front of the team. So long as there was no physical abuse I am fine with this. 

 

Sanders put J State and the entire HBCU group of teams in the spotlight. Who would ever have thought that Game Day would show up in Jackson, Mississippi?

 

CU was perhaps the worst team in the G5 and P5 last season. It will take time to turn things around in Boulder but Deion has already made a big financial impact. Spring game sold out at $10 a ticket and ESPN was on hand to broadcast the game. And the 2023 CU season tickets are sold out. This is for a school that in 2022 drew an average 'crowd' of 17,000.

 

I'm guessing here but I think the responses to Sanders publicly booting the player could well depend on a commenter's date of birth. Lots of stuff went down back when that would not be tolerated today.  

[Tandaian]

Deion Sanders has always been about himself since his playing days.  He hasn't changed when he became a coach.  Dismissing a player in front of the team is him being a bully and him grandstanding for the camera.  

 

I'm no way convinced Deion is a good coach yet.  He had many D1 players playing against FCS teams.  You only need a few dominate players and you are going to win your games.

 

Jackson State played one of the easiest schedules in FCS last year.  They played exactly 3 teams with winning records and lost vs the team that was ranked closest to them.  They played Southern twice.

 

 

Team                               Record               Ranking

Jackson State	11-1	156
Florida A&M	9-2	190
Tennessee St.	4-7	204
Grambling	3-8	240
Mississippi Valley St.	2-9	251
Alabama St.	6-5	224
Bethune-Cookman	2-9	245
Campbell	5-6	183
Southern	7-5	200
Texas Southern	5-6	220
Alabama A&M	4-7	231
Alcorn St.	5-6	207
Southern	7-5	200
North Carolina Central	10-2	175

 

Deion could be a good coach, but he will need to prove it over a long period of time.

[Dave23]

I do like that he let the team have a say in it but I'm not sure doing it in public is the best decision for team continuity. This might create animosity between players based on how they voted just like in politics. A better way of doing this might have been to poll the team in a secret ballot and release the kid in private.

 

This would create accountability for the players and the team without causing divides.

[DUCKED]

On 7/20/2023 at 9:11 AM, Dave23 said:

I do like that he let the team have a say in it but I'm not sure doing it in public is the best decision for team continuity. This might create animosity between players based on how they voted just like in politics. A better way of doing this might have been to poll the team in a secret ballot and release the kid in private.

 

This would create accountability for the players and the team without causing divides.

I don’t think the players should have been involved in the decision, at all, and certainly not publicly.

 

You make an excellent point about the players’ voting possibly creating a divide on the team.

 

Sanders is the boss. He makes the final decision on everything. 
 

Involving the players may have repercussions down the road.

[lownslowav8r]

Well, do you want to be a ruler (fear) or leader (people follow you because they want to). This is a complex question to answer. Was the team tired of this player a glad to see him go? How about the power imbalance?  It’s huge in sports and many recent reforms are, at their core, designed to reduce the asymmetry of power. 
 

"Old school" is, IMHO, a euphemism for rule through fear, the threat of violence, and violence. I’m not so naive to believe a community can exist without some ability to act violently against the worse offenders. However violence and intimidation can be a first response or last resort. 
 

My most complete answer would be a combination of emotion and reason best invoked by the question "would I want my child to be part of Sander's team," and the response would be no (actually a lot stronger than that but I don't want to invoke the language filters). I don't like the callous way he treats the people that depend on him and, sadly, misguidedly look up to him. 

[lownslowav8r]

Letting the team vote is "rule by the mob" and there isn't a better way to create a climate of fear and distrust. That would work out poorly. 

[Jon Joseph]

On 7/20/2023 at 12:08 PM, Tandaian said:

Deion Sanders has always been about himself since his playing days.  He hasn't changed when he became a coach.  Dismissing a player in front of the team is him being a bully and him grandstanding for the camera.  

 

I'm no way convinced Deion is a good coach yet.  He had many D1 players playing against FCS teams.  You only need a few dominate players and you are going to win your games.

 

Jackson State played one of the easiest schedules in FCS last year.  They played exactly 3 teams with winning records and lost vs the team that was ranked closest to them.  They played Southern twice.

 

 

Team                               Record               Ranking

Jackson State	11-1	156
Florida A&M	9-2	190
Tennessee St.	4-7	204
Grambling	3-8	240
Mississippi Valley St.	2-9	251
Alabama St.	6-5	224
Bethune-Cookman	2-9	245
Campbell	5-6	183
Southern	7-5	200
Texas Southern	5-6	220
Alabama A&M	4-7	231
Alcorn St.	5-6	207
Southern	7-5	200
North Carolina Central	10-2	175

 

Deion could be a good coach, but he will need to prove it over a long period of time.

Tan, good take but you play the schedule put before your team. 11-1 is an excellent record at any level of play. The schedule Sanders has in front of him in 2023 is simply brutal, including playing 2 P5 opponents OOC. CU plays Oregon, Oregon State, Utah, USC, and UCLA missing only UW among the teams projected to have a chance at winning the Pac-12. 

 

Yes, he was a showboat at FSU, and with the Falcons and the Braves. But his teammates loved playing with the man. He has a herculean rebuild in front of him but he has brought in assistant coaches that will help with the effort. Convincing the HC of Kent State to come to Boulder as his OC. was a big win.  Kent State gave UGA a much tougher game in 2022 than Oregon. And the other coaches around him are experienced. 

 

Sanders told the team he inherited the truth, the majority of guys on the roster were not capable of playing P5 football at a championship level. He is taking advantage of today's transfer portal rules to significantly upgrade the roster. In 2023 I think that Deion will have CU on the cusp of going bowling and the Buffs will upset a team or two that they are not supposed to beat. The former Buffs coach had the personality of a cumquat. Karl Dorrell had no shot at winning with the players he had on the roster. And CU would have continued to draw fewer than 20,000 fans for its home games. 

 

He has invigorated a moribund program and dropped money to the bottom line. P5 football like it or not is a big business. I can think of no other coach CU could have hired that would have moved the needle anywhere close to what Deion has done. His hire was not only good for CU, but it was also good for a Pac-10 that needs the publicity. I only hope that he will not be derailed by health issues.

 

The entire nation will be following CU this season because of Deion. 

[Dave23]

On 7/20/2023 at 10:28 AM, DUCKED said:

don’t think the players should have been involved in the decision, at all,

I can definitely see your point.

 

Maybe a better tact would be to talk to the team captains in private making them accountable for the rest of the team. This including them in the process and increasing their leadership responsibilities to make sure this behavior is not condoned.

 

Not knowing what this player did makes it a lot harder to speak to but it seemed that all the players knew it was going on.

[David Marsh]

I'd say this isn't something that should be done in front of the team. It actually makes it super awkward for everyone even whitnessing it.

 

There could be a brief team meeting after the player is removed from the team where the coach goes over why this had to happen and explains why the rules are important so it turns into a learning opportunity rather than something dramatic and scandalous. 

 

I would also like to know what rules this kid broke and how did Sanders address those incidents? Did he call him out and punish him in front of the team or sit him down and talk about it? 

 

Also was there a team meeting going over team rules at the start of the season? Did Sanders explain the rational behind the team rules? 

 

My teacher side just crindges at this sort of thing. I leady schools Constitutional Law Team (there is a whole competition and complex questions and it's a cool thing) and every year I seem to have one student who never participates in team meetings (it's a class but also an after school program). So I have to have conversations with students about being present and basically team rules or expectations. I've had to kick a few kids off the team, I'd never do it in public. It's always a private conversation after a series of conversations. 

[Augduck]

I'll join the fray here.   I don't think you do these kinds of thing 'in public'.   You call the player into a private meeting and you tell him what is happening and why.   No one deserves to be humiliated.

 

Many years ago I had a manager who did this same sort of  thing.   He would berate, belittle, and demean people in meetings in which the entire staff was in attendance.   It was horrible.  Luckily I was never on the other end of one of his rants but I can honestly say that those of us who had to witness it were extremely uncomfortable and it created a very hostile work environment.

 

Doing it privately then gives you the opportunity to turn it into a teaching moment for the others.   Let's be honest the other guys on the team probably knew the deal.  After all is said and done privately, you simply tell the team that said person is no longer on the team due to violation of multiple team rules, multiple times etc. 

[DanLduck]

I don't know what the jersey colors represented, but they pretty much voted together. That suggests to me they all knew who the player in question probably was, and so his "color" mostly supported him. It seemed to me to be a pretty close vote.

 

Notice coach kept using the word "family". He was clearly trying to make his point, and sometimes tough decisions should be discussed as a family.

 

Finally, using this format made it clear the decision was not personal. Everyone was in on it, making it easier for all to move forward from.

 

Lastly, I'm an old "white" boomer. I had a 2 parent family. I bet many of these boys did not. Tough love is learned best in family. It's hard for me to get a culture I wasn't raised in, but I'm guessing Dion knows better than I. 

 

Seeing someone learn the hard way is never easy. But chances are you'll never forget it.

[Haywarduck]

I like the questioning about what went before this public vote. How much was communicated to this kid before he was dismissed with the vote?

 

If Sanders told the kid he was going to face the team after another offense, then he definitely needed the public vote.

 

The one thing I would think needed to be clear from Sanders was it is now strike 3 and you're out. 

 

If Sanders son breaks the rules 3 times and he isn't out, that is where the team will fall apart. This has to now be the rule, end of story.

 

I can also understand how this could cause some trouble with the team if this wasn't clear. 

 

Lanning seems to have a one strike and your out policy on some level. I hope he is clear with this, and more clear about the policy than he was when kicked Holden off the team. 

[Jon Joseph]

One question I have as a follow-up to my comment. Is there any expectation of privacy in today's wired world? Who shot the video? Did Deion and the team know the meeting was being recorded?

 

I'm happy to be playing the back 9.

[spartan2785]

It seems like a really crappy thing to do, you can easily have the same effect of showing that actions have consequences by telling the team that a player has been dismissed for violating team rules. 

 

You also do not leave a decision like this to the entire team, that just means you are passing off the decision to others when you are supposed to be the leader.  What happens when a popular player does something that merits a dismissal but the team lets them back in just because he's well liked?  It is a very slippery slope when you let so many people decide the outcome, you're the leader act like on.

 

This is not to say that a coach shouldn't get the perspective of those around them, especially when it is not revolved around legal issues and instead around team rules.  So talking to a leadership council is important, you might even let that group vote on it, but I just don't think an entire team should be voting on the future of a player.  You're either headed towards a divide in the team, or you are going to end up really botching some decisions in the future.

[Tandaian]

On 7/20/2023 at 1:24 PM, Jon Joseph said:

One question I have as a follow-up to my comment. Is there any expectation of privacy in today's wired world? Who shot the video? Did Deion and the team know the meeting was being recorded?

 

I'm happy to be playing the back 9.

Deion had a docuseries while coaching at Jackson State.  Everybody knew the camera was on.

[DUCKED]

My guess, and it’s just a guess, is that Deion knew it was being recorded, and probably orchestrated it. 

[Jon Joseph]

On 7/20/2023 at 4:41 PM, Tandaian said:

Deion had a docuseries while coaching at Jackson State.  Everybody knew the camera was on.

Thanks. And no disrespect to Charles for posting this. As Charles' noted it is a very interesting issue to ponder.

[Charles Fischer]

It is apparent to me, that we would all need a lot more background information in terms of how Deon set up expectations with the rules, what was stated to the team previously, and what was discussed with the offending player.

 

We are making snap judgments with an incomplete picture, and this discussion really pulled that out.

[Mudslide]

On 7/20/2023 at 8:53 AM, Charles Fischer said:

I am so torn on this; I think you make a great point, as part of teaching young men is demonstrating a class way of holding yourself.

 

Yet doing it in public can make discipline a whole lot easier in the future.

My comment comes from years of supervising hundreds of people in dozens of departments.  Discipline comes from setting rules and boundaries and living by them.  Everyone knows firmly what results to expect from their actions.  Personal feelings (e.g. anger, fear) are mitigated this way.  Dignity is upheld.  On the other hand, humiliating someone who has violated rules/policies does not build teamwork or cause respect for the rule setter.  

I'm an old-old guy and I lived in the culture of discipline and respect.  And it is from this culture that I still operate.  Young people today seem to have a different take on discipline.  That's fine.  But in the world of work, any work including sports, they must be firmly alerted to barriers that must not be crossed or something they don't like will proceed.  But also, humiliation has zero to do with generating respect or discipline.  Fear is all that's likely to germinate.  

 

I don't know the circumstances that went into the Colorado incident.  But it doesn't ring my bell as a good thing.

Edited July 20, 2023 by Mudslide

[Jon Joseph]

https://athlonsports.com/college-football/colorado-announces-sellout-crowds-for-nebraska-and-stanford

[Wrathis]

Let's not act like Deion is Bear Bryant or Gunnery Sergeant Hartman here. The player got embarrassed and the rest of the team got put on notice that violation of rules will get you removed from the team, possibly in public.  I don't buy that you can't build a team this way, I saw it work time and again in the military. Deion's old school, he wants his team to be built old school, and he wants them to play like an old school team.

 

I don't want to get into what I think the softening of society has done, but in the business of college football where everyone is a prima-donna and Colorado was the laughing stock of the NCAAF last year, he's got a herculean effort in front of him to make them into a respectable football team...and if that means some feelings get hurt along the way, so be it.

[lownslowav8r]

 

On 7/20/2023 at 3:45 PM, Mudslide said:

I'm an old-old guy and I lived in the culture of discipline and respect.  And it is from this culture that I still operate.  Young people today seem to have a different take on discipline.  That's fine.  But in the world of work, any work including sports, they must be firmly alerted to barriers that must not be crossed or something they don't like will proceed.  But also, humiliation has zero to do with generating respect or discipline.  Fear is all that's likely to germinate. 

I'm always leery of negative views of kids in comparison to previous generations, having read similar complaints literally from Roman times . Also, the person whose behavior is being questioned is an adult of a previous generation, not the most recent. 
 

That said, any well functioning community or business will be based upon boundaries,  consequences, and respect, (and also compassion and care) and I think @Mudslide is spot on.
 

If there is a difference in the newest generations, the most highly educated and media savvy generations perhaps ever seen, is that they are very aware that respect often is demanded for those in positions of power but often does not flow in the opposite direction. Something I'd argue we are seeing in coach Sander's actions here. 

Edited July 21, 2023 by lownslowav8r

[Haywarduck]

On 7/21/2023 at 9:09 AM, lownslowav8r said:

 

I'm always leery of negative views of kids in comparison to previous generations, having read similar complaints literally from Roman times . Also, the person whose behavior is being questioned is an adult of a previous generation, not the most recent. 
 

That said, any well functioning community or business will be based upon boundaries,  consequences, and respect, and I think @Mudslide is spot on.
 

If there is a difference in the newest generations, the most highly educated and media savvy generations perhaps ever seen, is that they are very aware that respect often is demanded for those in positions of power but often does not flow in the opposite direction. Something I'd argue we are seeing in coach Sander's actions here. 

Agree comparisons are often viewed from a cloudy lens. As someone who still compete athletically I love the saying the older I get the faster I was. I think the same can be said about how tough we use to be. 

 

While there are differences between generations and what circumstances we encounter, human nature is fairly constant. 

 

The other element is we have no idea how this all went down. One thing is for sure, if a kid signed up to play under Sanders, this kind of grandstanding should have been expected, still may not have been acceptable.

[lownslowav8r]

On 7/20/2023 at 3:26 PM, Charles Fischer said:

It is apparent to me, that we would all need a lot more background information in terms of how Deon set up expectations with the rules, what was stated to the team previously, and what was discussed with the offending player.

 

We are making snap judgments with an incomplete picture, and this discussion really pulled that out

One thing I’ve learned in my work resolving disputes, is that the situation is always more complex and nuanced than it initially appears. Always. 
 

That said, there are ways of behaving that lead to less second guessing. Clearly Sanders’s chose a different path. Perhaps he was justified…

Edited July 21, 2023 by lownslowav8r