Trojan, Bruin Players Will Regret the Move to the Big-10

[FishDuck Article]

 

Sure, the schools themselves will get a lot more money - but what's the impact on the players?

 

Trojan, Bruin Players Will Regret the Move to the Big-10

FISHDUCK.COM

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It is my contention that the players in all sports at the LA schools have not truly thought through the movement to the B1G. Note I stated it is the actual...

 

[Smith72]

Well said Mr. FishDuck!  Thanks for writing this enjoyable essay!

 

You make good points in your argument.  I would like to posit another factor that USC & UCLA will come to rue.

 

When people discuss an upcoming NFL game during the season much is said about the long trip coast to coast being a disadvantage.  The same thing is said about an NBA team on a long road trip.  And these are pros.

 

Constant long flights during the season will become a grind!  Especially for all the non football sports.  What about an equipment truck for football being delayed or in an accident in November!

 

These woes couldn't happen to more deserving Universities.

[HappyToBeADuck]

Thanks Charles for the article and you are absolutely correct that this is all about the money and very little about the players.

 

Basketball and non revenue sports athletes will be flying back east, round trip every other week. Unless you provide the team with a private charter there are no direct flights to midwest college towns. Lot's of layovers for connecting flights. Constant air travel is a grind. So that can be added to the current challenge for student athletes.

 

At least the portal will offer the players the opportunity to getout of a bad situation.

 

But on the upside both ucla and usc get to play football in the G5 west division of the BIG. Not much challenge for football in that division. I imagine that top west coast talent grows up dreaming of a match up with Northwestern in late November.......

 

Decisions have consequences.

[Haywarduck]

Against Notre Dame, sc is 0-5 over the last 10 years when traveling to South Bend. Going forward about half their games will be at that distance, good luck with that.

Edited February 6, 2023 by Haywarduck

[woundedknees]

Sorta like the 'Mom/Gf' factor in recrootin' for a young man, one would think... They'll either love it or hate the constant travel.

I imagine there will be a few players who find making a college decision/argument simpler.

"LOOK, Mom, I'll be 4 hours closer, 5 times a year!" 

[lownslowav8r]

My understanding of this situation is that the athletes were never consulted and their approval is not close to a majority. This was a decision made by the powerful to maximize their short term interests. If it harms the little people, well you can’t make an omelette without breaking eggs. 

 

If you are one of the hoi polli and don’t like it, your only choice is to leave.  That has costs but the powerful aren’t paying those costs so they are indifferent.
 

My guess is many of the best athletes (who have the most options to leave) will end up leaving. Especially in the Olympic sports which neither UCLA or USC administrators are all that enthused about, anyway. They’d love to see Olympic sports disappear leaving more money for revenue making sports. $$$
 

Implying this was a choice by the athletes that they will come to regret is partially correct in that the athletes will come to regret this.   

Edited February 6, 2023 by lownslowav8r

[Charles Fischer]

An element I did not cover in the article is how, in a few years when the athletes realized they are being used--being in the B1G will be used against USC and UCLA in recruiting, if not sooner.  These issues are very real, and a player doesn't have to to live with it.  (Makes it easier to come to Oregon?)

 

Athletes Don't Like

to be Played...

[Jon Joseph]

On 2/6/2023 at 5:05 AM, FishDuck Article said:

 

Sure, the schools themselves will get a lot more money - but what's the impact on the players?

 

Trojan, Bruin Players Will Regret the Move to the Big-10

FISHDUCK.COM

---

It is my contention that the players in all sports at the LA schools have not truly thought through the movement to the B1G. Note I stated it is the actual...

 

Especially, the non-revenue sports athletes. 

[Jon Joseph]

On 2/6/2023 at 10:10 AM, Haywarduck said:

Against Notre Dame, sc is 0-5 over the last 10 years when traveling to South Bend. Going forward about half their games will be at that distance, good luck with that.

Love it. But Notre Dame is far better than all but 3 and possibly 4 B1G teams. Yeah, 2 B1G schools made the PO last season but that's 2 out of the 3 ranked at the season's end.

 

B1G W champ Purdue had 60+ hung on them by LSU in the bowl game. 

 

2023 will be another year with divisions in the B1G. Unless Fickell turns things around in a hurry at Wisconsin and maybe the same for Ruhle at Nebraska I expect the B1G W champ to again be walloped by the B1G E champ in the champ game.

 

Also, I think 2023 is yet another year where we will see overrated B1G CBB teams choke in the Tournament.

[kirklandduck]

On 2/6/2023 at 12:01 PM, Charles Fischer said:

An element I did not cover in the article is how, in a few years when the athletes realized they are being used--being in the B1G will be used against USC and UCLA in recruiting, if not sooner.  These issues are very real, and a player doesn't have to to live with it.  (Makes it easier to come to Oregon?)

 

Athletes Don't Like

to be Played...

Oh definitely!  Having to fly across the country for almost every road game is going to get old real fast.  Other teams will absolutely point this out when recruiting against these schools.

[spartan2785]

I actually don't think the travel will matter that much to football recruits in terms of the drag of flights/hotels, weather might be a factor, but for basically all the sports where you might have actual road trips it's going to be hell, with constant trips going back and forth across the country, traveling from Minneapolis to Evansville, or East Lansing to West Lafayette is going to take it's toll. 

 

Really it's the only way that sports like basketball, volleyball, baseball, etc. could operate. 

 

Big 10 schools are probably going to really enjoy it, they get a nice road trip to L.A, where they will encounter basically sparse crowds who won't do much in terms of creating a hostile environment, and they can market themselves to recruits there.  

 

I think if Oregon and Washington end up joining though, those trips will be really tough for the schools back east to come and get wins in Eugene and Seattle, they'll be different crowds with a lot of fans who might enjoy the novelty of playing new teams.  

[David Marsh]

One nitpick with the title... I don't think the players will regret joining the B1G as they didn't have any say in the matter. They will be forced to feel the consequences of a decision that hurts them but they had no say in the matter and gain little to no benefit from it. The players will absolutely suffer for their AD's decisions. 

 

You did lay it all out fantastically Charles. Oregon should be just fine, at least in terms of football. The only problems will come when/if the playoff is monopolized by the B1G and SEC only, but in that case we will see a drastic shift with the scenario I laid out last Summer with The Great College Football Schism is Coming and The Eventual College Football Renaissance

[Brian]

Charles, this excellent, you nailed it!!

 

The players want NIL money, and it doesn't come from TV, it comes from other sources.  And that has nothing to do with which conference you play for.

 

You also noted streaming, which is where this is headed.  MLS (major league soccer) starts this season exclusively with Apple TV streaming.  No regular TV or cable.  $100/season for all games, all devices, any time.  This is just the beginning.

[OceaniaDuck]

All the more reason why the conference needs to work hard to preserve itself. Sure, I'm being presumptuous, but when USC and UCLA figure out that the pastures weren't greener on the other side after all, we still need a PAC-12 they can come back to.

 

Assuming SDSU and somebody else (SMU? Fresno State?) are already in the conference, that would give the PAC-14 even more leverage in negotiating media rights deals. Sadly in the meantime, the PAC will have to suffer through leaner times until the prodigal sons come back home.

Edited February 16, 2023 by OceaniaDuck

[Nevada Dawg]

On 2/6/2023 at 12:23 PM, Jon Joseph said:

Love it. But Notre Dame is far better than all but 3 and possibly 4 B1G teams. Yeah, 2 B1G schools made the PO last season but that's 2 out of the 3 ranked at the season's end.

 

B1G W champ Purdue had 60+ hung on them by LSU in the bowl game. 

 

2023 will be another year with divisions in the B1G. Unless Fickell turns things around in a hurry at Wisconsin and maybe the same for Ruhle at Nebraska I expect the B1G W champ to again be walloped by the B1G E champ in the champ game.

 

Also, I think 2023 is yet another year where we will see overrated B1G CBB teams choke in the Tournament.

You are talking my language about the B1G, particularly the final statement about B1G basketball. My prediction about Fickell is similar to what I said about Lanning. Though his roster at Wisconsin is not as favorable as Oregon's was for Lanning, within three years, Fickell's teams will be playing pretty much even with whomever else  is good in that division. I feel the same  about the coach at Nebraska. These were two great hires.

[Log Haulin]

Players might regret their decision to commit to one of the LA schools. But it's their choice and with the portal they can always rectify their youthful ignorance of choosing to play for those traitors.

 

If a kid wants to play for UCLA or USC, I don't feel sorry for them. They chose to play there.

[TexasDuck]

After the next couple of recruiting cycles, all of their athletes will have signed knowing that they are going to the Big 10.  I’m not certain there will be much regret.  

[Just Ducky]

I’ve always maintained that both UCLA and usc will will loose recruiting power the longer they continue down the path of self destruction. I think it will be sooner rather than later. But I am willing to wait for the bomb to drop.

[Jon Joseph]

On 2/6/2023 at 10:05 AM, HappyToBeADuck said:

Thanks Charles for the article and you are absolutely correct that this is all about the money and very little about the players.

 

Basketball and non revenue sports athletes will be flying back east, round trip every other week. Unless you provide the team with a private charter there are no direct flights to midwest college towns. Lot's of layovers for connecting flights. Constant air travel is a grind. So that can be added to the current challenge for student athletes.

 

At least the portal will offer the players the opportunity to getout of a bad situation.

 

But on the upside both ucla and usc get to play football in the G5 west division of the BIG. Not much challenge for football in that division. I imagine that top west coast talent grows up dreaming of a match up with Northwestern in late November.......

 

Decisions have consequences.

Great take but I think the B1G will drop divisions when the 2 LA schools arrive and I expect the SEC will do the same when OK/TX arrive in 2024.

[Jon Joseph]

On 2/6/2023 at 10:05 AM, HappyToBeADuck said:

Thanks Charles for the article and you are absolutely correct that this is all about the money and very little about the players.

 

Basketball and non revenue sports athletes will be flying back east, round trip every other week. Unless you provide the team with a private charter there are no direct flights to midwest college towns. Lot's of layovers for connecting flights. Constant air travel is a grind. So that can be added to the current challenge for student athletes.

 

At least the portal will offer the players the opportunity to getout of a bad situation.

 

But on the upside both ucla and usc get to play football in the G5 west division of the BIG. Not much challenge for football in that division. I imagine that top west coast talent grows up dreaming of a match up with Northwestern in late November.......

 

Decisions have consequences.

 

[Nevada Dawg]

I thought about this a bit more and can see how the SoCal schools could  benefit competitively from the move. Sorry if already posted, but I think it very likely that SC and UCLA will become very attractive destinations for stud recruits from the B1G footprint. Heck, if I am a Minnesota, Wisconsin, Michigan, or Pennsylvania kid, I may undoubtedly see the advantage of swapping Midwestern winters for the weather, beaches, and scantily clad chicks of Los Angeles.

 

Am I missing something here? 

[Haywarduck]

On 2/18/2023 at 10:18 PM, Nevada Dawg said:

I thought about this a bit more and can see how the SoCal schools could  benefit competitively from the move. Sorry if already posted, but I think it very likely that SC and UCLA will become very attractive destinations for stud recruits from the B1G footprint. Heck, if I am a Minnesota, Wisconsin, Michigan, or Pennsylvania kid, I may undoubtedly see the advantage of swapping Midwestern winters for the weather, beaches, and scantily clad chicks of Los Angeles.

 

Am I missing something here? 

They want to move to the west coast, so they can stay on the west coast.  Somebody who is attracted to a nicer climate, and being away from home don't want to go back 3-4 times to play where they could have in the first place. They want the adventure of being away from home, and the continual travel won't be attractive.

 

Everything is used in recruiting, and this will undoubtedly be used, and will be a factor in transfers too.

[Nevada Dawg]

As someone who has lived in the Midwest and coped with its harsh winters, I see the attraction of LA for many of these Midwestern kids--and saw it when I lived here. In my opinion, having to travel back to play football 3-4 times a year is no big deal, especially in that most of football season is played before Thanksgiving when the weather is still benign back there.

 

I'd bet in the years ahead that you'll see more starters at UCLA and USC who hail from the Midwest than Western studs playing at the traditional B1G schools. Whether this infusion from the middle would really be enough to move the competitive needle for the SoCal schools remains an empirical (and interesting) question.

[Tandaian]

I don't think the issue is with football.  It is with every other sport.  Every other sport will be traveling 10-15 times a season.  Even when I'm traveling for vacation, I don't like it and I'm not expected to perform athletically.

[Jon Joseph]

LOL at UCLA CBB coach Mike Cronin's response to the CBB Committee's initial release of the tournament field.

 

He thinks UCLA is being screwed over because of the Bruins' move to the B1G.

 

A love a good conspiracy theory BUT COME ON MAN! If the Pac-12 had any influence with the Committee I think it would be used to have more conference teams in the field and not to hose over UCLA.  The farther UCLA goes in the tournament more the money for the conference.

 

These 'boys' refuse to gently go away. 

 

How huge will the SC at Oregon football game be? Bring your ear muffs. 

[Nevada Dawg]

Yeah SC vs.the Ducks is one game I'd travel for next year.

[CompEngineer97]

Interesting topic. If I may weigh in from the other side, I don't think the teams will regret it as much as some people think. First, you have to consider that flight times vs. distances do not scale linearly, like drive times typically do. A flight path is dictated by fuel consumption more than anything, and the most fuel/second is burned during the takeoff and climb out phases of the flight, when the engines are at full throttle. Once a flight reaches its cruising altitude, the pilot is able to dial the engines back a bit.

 

For longer flights, the pilot will thus trade more fuel consumption and a longer climb phase for a higher cruise altitude, where the fuel savings will occur, but because the flight is cruising at higher altitude where the air is thinner, the aircraft's relative ground speed will be higher. To put real numbers behind this, look at a direct flight between LAX and Seattle-Tacoma. The distance is 830 nautical miles, and the commercial flight time is 2 hrs 45 min.

 

A similarly direct commercial flight between LAX and Chicago O'Hare covers 1516 nautical miles, almost double the distance, but only takes about 38% more time (3 hrs 48 minutes total). Again, the general rule is that the further you fly, the higher and faster you fly. For the two examples given, it would be an average ground speed of 302 knots vs. 399 knots.

But the added flight time only tells part of the story, because one thing those schools will now be able to do with the surplus cash is charter private flights for all their teams, not just in the revenue sports. This makes a HUGE difference when your base hub is one of the five busiest airports in the world. If you are flying commercially out of LAX, you need to pad at least 2 hours just to get on. For one thing, the traffic to get there can be a nightmare. Even driving around LAX's traffic horseshoe from one end of the airport to the other can take half an hour or longer on a bad day.

 

You have to check bags at least 45 minutes early, get through security, move through a huge terminal (that alone can be 45 minutes of walking for some of the more remote terminals), wait to board a flight, wait behind a lot of people to get off a flight, and then wait at baggage claim. This of course also assumes that you can find a direct flight where you are going, which is rare since few universities with major sports programs are actually located in major cities. For example, the commercial options for a road trip to WSU are not attractive at all, as one must either settle for a direct flight between LA and Spokane, followed by a 1 hr 18 min bus trip to Pullman or instead opt for a layover (most likely in Portland or Seattle) to catch a Horizon shuttle to Pullman-Moscow.

 

Either option adds additional time and stress that more than offsets the slightly longer flight that could be spent catching up on sleep or doing homework. Consider instead that LAX's charter terminal is a tiny little building, FAR away from its traffic bottleneck on the south end of the airport with minimal security, a minute fraction of the people going through, and the planes are right next to it. Bottom line is that when the teams start chartering private planes, the flights will wait for them, not the other way around. My wife was lucky enough to snap photos with several members of the LA Kings on their way out of town as she was taking a charter for work and had exactly 10 minutes at the terminal between the time the shuttle dropped her off and the plane picked her up. The student-athletes will be treated like royalty.

And that isn't even accounting for the rumor I've heard floating around that USC (and possibly UCLA jointly) are looking into building a remote campus/dormitory/training facility somewhere in the Midwest so that teams won't have to take long flights home between back-to-back road games. If anything, their travel burden will be significantly reduced.

Oh, and if we are learning anything from recent coaching moves, more money will enable USC and UCLA to poach more coaching talent, which means those athletes will be trained by the best.

Edited February 24, 2023 by CompEngineer97

[Haywarduck]

On 2/24/2023 at 1:32 PM, CompEngineer97 said:

Interesting topic. If I may weigh in from the other side, I don't think the teams will regret it as much as some people think. First, you have to consider that flight times vs. distances do not scale linearly, like drive times typically do. A flight path is dictated by fuel consumption more than anything, and the most fuel/second is burned during the takeoff and climb out phases of the flight, when the engines are at full throttle. Once a flight reaches its cruising altitude, the pilot is able to dial the engines back a bit.

 

For longer flights, the pilot will thus trade more fuel consumption and a longer climb phase for a higher cruise altitude, where the fuel savings will occur, but because the flight is cruising at higher altitude where the air is thinner, the aircraft's relative ground speed will be higher. To put real numbers behind this, look at a direct flight between LAX and Seattle-Tacoma. The distance is 830 nautical miles, and the commercial flight time is 2 hrs 45 min.

 

A similarly direct commercial flight between LAX and Chicago O'Hare covers 1516 nautical miles, almost double the distance, but only takes about 38% more time (3 hrs 48 minutes total). Again, the general rule is that the further you fly, the higher and faster you fly. For the two examples given, it would be an average ground speed of 302 knots vs. 399 knots.

But the added flight time only tells part of the story, because one thing those schools will now be able to do with the surplus cash is charter private flights for all their teams, not just in the revenue sports. This makes a HUGE difference when your base hub is one of the five busiest airports in the world. If you are flying commercially out of LAX, you need to pad at least 2 hours just to get on. For one thing, the traffic to get there can be a nightmare. Even driving around LAX's traffic horseshoe from one end of the airport to the other can take half an hour or longer on a bad day.

 

You have to check bags at least 45 minutes early, get through security, move through a huge terminal (that alone can be 45 minutes of walking for some of the more remote terminals), wait to board a flight, wait behind a lot of people to get off a flight, and then wait at baggage claim. This of course also assumes that you can find a direct flight where you are going, which is rare since few universities with major sports programs are actually located in major cities. For example, the commercial options for a road trip to WSU are not attractive at all, as one must either settle for a direct flight between LA and Spokane, followed by a 1 hr 18 min bus trip to Pullman or instead opt for a layover (most likely in Portland or Seattle) to catch a Horizon shuttle to Pullman-Moscow.

 

Either option adds additional time and stress that more than offsets the slightly longer flight that could be spent catching up on sleep or doing homework. Consider instead that LAX's charter terminal is a tiny little building, FAR away from its traffic bottleneck on the south end of the airport with minimal security, a minute fraction of the people going through, and the planes are right next to it. Bottom line is that when the teams start chartering private planes, the flights will wait for them, not the other way around. My wife was lucky enough to snap photos with several members of the LA Kings on their way out of town as she was taking a charter for work and had exactly 10 minutes at the terminal between the time the shuttle dropped her off and the plane picked her up. The student-athletes will be treated like royalty.

And that isn't even accounting for the rumor I've heard floating around that USC (and possibly UCLA jointly) are looking into building a remote campus/dormitory/training facility somewhere in the Midwest so that teams won't have to take long flights home between back-to-back road games. If anything, their travel burden will be significantly reduced.

Oh, and if we are learning anything from recent coaching moves, more money will enable USC and UCLA to poach more coaching talent, which means those athletes will be trained by the best.

Hate to break it to you, but most Pac-10 football teams take charter flights already. As far as the remote practice facilities in the midwest, those will be built right after the Hurricanes finish their on campus stadium. I do agree the traffic in LA is a nightmare. 

Edited February 24, 2023 by Haywarduck

[McDuck]

The unspoken part of the post above is the time zone change.  Actual miles traveled or time in the air isn't the only factor.

 

Jet lag disorder - Symptoms and causes

WWW.MAYOCLINIC.ORG

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[CompEngineer97]

I know. The benefit will be felt by all the OTHER teams besides football and basketball that currently do NOT fly charter.

[Pennsylvania Duck]

In our family, we find it much more difficult sleepwise to travel from West to East. You can't get to sleep until really late, then waking up in the morning because you've lost 2 or 3 hours asleep, you are tired and not alert. If you have an early game scheduled, that is not good.

[Haywarduck]

On 2/24/2023 at 3:16 PM, CompEngineer97 said:

I know. The benefit will be felt by all the OTHER teams besides football and basketball that currently do NOT fly charter.

Ok, that makes sense now.

[CompEngineer97]

Time change is a factor in jet lag only when one needs to actually adjust to imposed schedules of the local environment. In other words, if you travel halfway around the world on vacation, you will want to adjust your sleep schedule so that as a tourist you can be awake when most sights are open.

 

It stands to reason that when USC hosts Big Ten opponents, their games will be played in the early afternoon, but when USC travels to Big Ten games, they will play in the late afternoon/early evening, so as to accommodate TV audiences across both teams' respective time zones. Thus, there is little need to adjust the body clocks of the players for a short road trip.Just let them practice, go to sleep, and wake up later.

 

The chief causes of jet lag have little to do with the time zone, namely oxygen deprivation from exposure to reduced atmospheric pressure and dehydration from being in an almost humidity-free environment. Anyone who has flown the 787, even over great distances across multiple time zones, immediately notices how little jet lag they experience, because the carbon fiber air frame supports higher air pressure and humidity. I wouldn't expect athletes at the peak of their physical perfotmance to be too much more affected than they already are, since as I've already shown, flight times will only slightly increase and (in the case of non-revenue sports) total travel times will likely decrease.

[Charles Fischer]

I stand by my original contention, that I believe within four years of the move to the Big Ten, the athletes of sports other than football will rue this move.

 

Jet lag or not, it does not move the money-needle, as the players are again being used to make more money for the athletic program, and they will see very little in return for the additional hassle.

[CompEngineer97]

On 2/27/2023 at 11:38 AM, Charles Fischer said:

I stand by my original contention, that I believe within four years of the move to the Big Ten, the athletes of sports other than football will rue this move.

 

Jet lag or not, it does not move the money-needle, as the players are again being used to make more money for the athletic program, and they will see very little in return for the additional hassle.

Well everyone is entitled to their opinion, even you.  As I've already mentioned, the athletes in non-revenue sports will see a substantial decrease in overall travel time by being able to take charter flights directly to their opponents rather than waiting around LAX and taking either connections or long bus trips. The simple fact is that the Pac was already spread out enough that the LA schools' athletes basicallly had to fly, except maybe to the Arizona schools (about a 4 hr ride).

 

Even the bay area schools were half a day or so in the car. For every trip that will be longer (e.g. taking a charter flight to Maryland or Rutgers) there will be several that will be shorter (e.g. not having to take a couple commercial flights to WSU, Colorado, Oregon State, or Oregon) Only Washington, Utah, and the bay area schools are located near major cities that made direct flights possible .

 

If USC/UCLA build a midwest satellite facility, it will offer far more resources than a hotel for road trips, and again all the extra revenue insures training and equipment will always be state-of-the-art and the coaches will be some of the best compensated, so they will be able to lure the best from all over the country, no matter how much the coaching arms race heats up. The athletes will be on a national, rather than regional stage. Some will appreciate that and won't mind the time on airplanes. Others won't, will look elsewhere  and that's fine too.

[Charles Fischer]

On 3/1/2023 at 3:16 PM, CompEngineer97 said:

As I've already mentioned,

Repeating the same content does not convince people.

 

We have separate opinions, no sweat and it will be fun to watch for.

[Duckman1]

I kinda feel like it's all going to be one big conference in the end, divided by regions, the more people pull away from cable and satellite the less attractive media deals become, it will eventually be all streaming one day. Who really knows its all just speculation

 I would not regret joining another conference in the end it won't even matter