Whoa! This could Change Everything for College Sports

[30Duck]

NCAA       NCAA

 

 

[Charles Fischer]

[Just Ducky]

If they operate like a normal union could mean a pay cut. LOL

[noDucknewby]

More on this:

 

 

[Just Ducky]

Next they will complain about having to pay union dues. 

[Charles Fischer]

We had better enjoy Softball, Baseball, Track and Womens Basketball while we can.  If this goes through...Oregon will not be able to afford 19 sports any longer.  

[mrspenney]

This is just the start,.  After this gets litigated and assuming they win, what do we think the non revenue sports athletes are going to do?  Are universities going to just drop non revenue sports that they have invested millions of dollars in facilities, equipment et al.  It would seem to me that if they invalidated the definition used today of STUDENT ATHLETE it would also have they same effect on non revenue sports.

 

I hate to say this, but it seems to me like the only possible answer to this disaster is some new national legislation from congress.  

 

If not the whole system as we know it will go down the drain and we will be left with the so called super conference with football and basketball only and involve somewhere between 24 and 36 universities.

[Charles Fischer]

For those who cannot get into the OregonLive article...

 

NCPA Takes Next Step Toward College Athletes Being Classified As Employees by Ross Dellenger of Sports Illustrated

 

Pac-12 commissioner George Kliavkoff disagreed that college athletes should be employees.

 

“They are students first and athletes second. That is non-negotiable for me,” he said. “We get to a place where we talk about professional athletes and it blows up the whole model. Let’s take it to the natural conclusion. Talking about professional athletes, then we have a draft. You’re telling a kid where to go to college. If they are an employee, do I get the right to fire them?"

[Drake]

What next? Perhaps a lawsuit for age discrimination and unfair hiring practices. 

[jrw]

Hmmm...I'm no employment attorney, but I was an employer for a long time. An employer/employee relationship would raise some questions to me, like Kliavkoff"s.

 

• Would an athlete's job be employment-at-will? Could he/she be fired?
•  
• Would individual employment contracts be negotiated? More money for lawyers!
•  
• Could employers demand non-compete clauses? No portal for you!
•  
• What would prevent Texas A&M from hiring all the best employees?
•  
• Will we have the Public Sector Champion and the Private Sector champion going head-to-head in the Scott Boras Bowl?

 

I need to go lie down now.

 

 

•  

[30Duck]

On 2/8/2022 at 5:55 PM, jrw said:

 

I need to go lie down now.

That is the best advice I've seen. It took a long time for NIL to come about, football and basketball players were raising issues about the student/athlete model in the mid 90's. All the things you mentioned, and a lot more will need to be dealt with. The one thing about legal work is that litigation takes a long time. 

[Steven A]

On 2/8/2022 at 4:01 PM, Just Ducky said:

Next they will complain about having to pay union dues. 

Screw dues, wait till they see Fed income, state income (states without this new advantage) Social Security and Unemployment taxes withheld.

[30Duck]

On 2/8/2022 at 6:46 PM, Steven A said:

Screw dues, wait till they see Fed income, state income (states without this new advantage) Social Security and Unemployment taxes withheld.

Thanks for all of this. Clarity is what's needed now. The NIL and transfer portal have exploded because with all the signs that it wasn't the 50's anymore, nothing changed, but it can't be just piles of money now. Be careful what you wish for will come into play here. 

[Mudslide]

I'm glad, but sad, that you're all seeing the same ugly view of my dystopian predicted image of college sports.  Perhaps fans can be a force for reason.  But I doubt it.  It's pretty depressing, or should be, for most of us.  Heck, even the head negotiator for the Players Negotiating (Federal lawsuit) Committee agrees...predicting the end of all non-revenue college sports.  Geez.  At least I hoped for some residual college 'club' teams. 

 

I do not see this snowball being stopped at any point...that is until the to-be-formed Collegiate Players Union negotiates some kind of barely acceptable contract terms with the NCAA.

[Duck1984]

Are attorneys and agents close behind?

 

[toketeeman]

I have said this for decades: there has never been such a thing as a "scholar-athlete". It was a workers-benefits-avoidance invention of the NCAA back in the 1950s. It has since existed as one of the biggest PR messaging frauds in American college sports.
 

[Jon Joseph]

On 2/8/2022 at 6:41 PM, 30Duck said:

NCAA       NCAA

 

 

Happened before at Northwestern when players wanted a union and were ultimately shut down by the Labor Department. NCPANow is the same group that wanted 50%+ of football and basketball revenues. These are young people with little or no business sense and If they succeed, victory will end athletic scholarships at both SC and UCLA. (I have no idea why the suit would be filed against 2 institutions in California and not filed as a federal class action suit against all P5/G5 and other schools that award athletic scholarships. I have no idea why you would choose a public and a private school as your defendants. SC is going to have defenses not available to UCLA. Then again, I think the plaintiffs are getting BS legal advice.)

 

Bills have been filed in Iowa and other states to classify CFB/CBB players at public schools as state employees. 

 

Classifying players as employees is just one step closer to a Super League. A League loosely affiliated with brand name schools. A very large number of schools are not going to be willing to classify scholarship players as employees. If football players at CAL are state employees than rigid admissions requirements are an unfair barrier to employment and violative of the California and federal constitutions. Plus, FICA, FUTA, CA State PERS payments, etc. Also, can you demote an employee from 1st to second string without an administrative hearing?

 

This is just one step closer to the coming Super League that will be loosely affiliated with the brand name schools that are willing to allow their respective 'football facilities' to be used as a 'minor league' for the NFL. Thousands of kids who have received an education through athletic scholarships will have to find another way to earn a college degree. Varsity sports will become club sports. In the Ivy League, all sports are basically 'club sports.' 

 

These folks win this suit, they win the battle and lose the war; the baby will be tossed out with the bath water at many the school.

 

 

Edited February 9, 2022 by Jon Joseph

[Jon Joseph]

On 2/8/2022 at 7:10 PM, Charles Fischer said:

We had better enjoy Softball, Baseball, Track and Womens Basketball while we can.  If this goes through...Oregon will not be able to afford 19 sports any longer.  

Oregon may well offer no athletic scholarships for any sport if players are employees.

[Jon Joseph]

My bad, I now see that the suit was filed against the NLRB, NCAA, the Pac-12 and the 2 named schools. This is logical. How much is this going to cost each defendant in legal fees? 

 

I'm starting to come around to Phillips and the ACC's desire to hold off on playoff expansion. If the plaintiffs succeed CFB as we know it is over and out.

[Charles Fischer]

Then we better enjoy it and soak it up while we can!

[Kurt Rambis]

And if this all happens, "college" football will simply become another pro league.  At that point, they'll be competing with the NFL, not feeding it.

 

The NFL will not take that lightly.  See entries on WFL, USFL.  Teams in non-NFL markets like Lincoln, Eugene, and Tuscaloosa might be okay - Stanford, Cal, USC, UCLA, Arizona State, and others are in trouble.  The NFL will have no problem throwing its weight around - signing players who should be freshmen, refusing teams the right to play in its stadiums, non-compete agreements for coaches, playing on Saturdays.  Anger the NFL at your own risk.

 

And I'm guessing if it's another pro league, billionaire boosters are going to be less likely to donate money for new facilities.  If it's all profit-based, let the team turn a profit.

 

As employees, can they be laid off if the team runs into problems?  Can they be fired for non-performance?  Traded?  (I wonder who might want Butterfield for a huge D-lineman?)  Do they get workman's comp if injured?  Does OSHA get involved and regulate equipment and practices?  Can they now be required to work full-time year-round, eight hours/five days a week? 

 

Do they get the same medical coverage that other school employees get with co-pays and deductibles, rather than all their specialized medical attention?  (Yeah, you blew your MCL - you're authorized for ten physical therapy appointments.)  Maybe the same travel perks (Yes, a direct flight on the team charter would be great, but we booked you to Gainesville through Dallas and Orlando - oh, and you're in a middle seat next to the lavatory...here's your bag of peanuts.)   

 

If they're not required to attend classes, any kid with an F average can play for Stanford or Notre Dame.  At that point, why does a team need to be associated with a school at all?

 

Then how long will it be until "Alabama" is disassociated entirely from the University of Alabama?  Or until a group of owners wants a team in Portland to compete against Oregon and Washington and doesn't even bother to associate with a university?  How long until Oregon alumni no longer follow the Ducks because the team is associated with their alma mater?

 

This could go in so, so many ugly directions.

 

One thing I know:  I would rather be an athlete getting a free education, all the training table food I can eat, regular physical therapy, specialist doctors, charter flights, and all the other perks they receive, than be the equivalent of a $50k-a-year mid-level employee at a university.

[Just Ducky]

When lawyers get involved it will end up costing more than the university’s can bear. It’s not like they can actually afford this scam. There will be no college World Series and that to me alone would be a travesty.

[Just Ducky]

Can’t wait to see one of these employers asking a premadonna wide receiver to go down to Randall hall and clean out the toilets or we will fire you for lack of performance issues. Lunch breaks will be 30 minutes long. Random pee tests would have to be performed or insurance companies would not touch college sports. These kids think boos are bad wait till they see picket lines outside their practice facilities when they loose 3 straight. What a giant can of worms.

 Actually this might be more entertaining than some of these games we are forced to watch. Like Alabama vs lady of the lost.

[savagefund]

In this day of changing definitions I don't how anybody will be able to agree on most any issue but especially complicated ones like this.

Will I ever really know what you mean anymore?

[Charles Fischer]

On 2/9/2022 at 10:04 AM, Kurt Rambis said:

And if this all happens, "college" football will simply become another pro league.  At that point, they'll be competing with the NFL, not feeding it.

 

The NFL will not take that lightly.  See entries on WFL, USFL.  Teams in non-NFL markets like Lincoln, Eugene, and Tuscaloosa might be okay - Stanford, Cal, USC, UCLA, Arizona State, and others are in trouble.  The NFL will have no problem throwing its weight around - signing players who should be freshmen, refusing teams the right to play in its stadiums, non-compete agreements for coaches, playing on Saturdays.  Anger the NFL at your own risk.

Again....another example of why I love this community.  I did not even think of these points, and they are big ones!

[Jon Joseph]

On 2/9/2022 at 10:04 AM, Kurt Rambis said:

And if this all happens, "college" football will simply become another pro league.  At that point, they'll be competing with the NFL, not feeding it.

 

The NFL will not take that lightly.  See entries on WFL, USFL.  Teams in non-NFL markets like Lincoln, Eugene, and Tuscaloosa might be okay - Stanford, Cal, USC, UCLA, Arizona State, and others are in trouble.  The NFL will have no problem throwing its weight around - signing players who should be freshmen, refusing teams the right to play in its stadiums, non-compete agreements for coaches, playing on Saturdays.  Anger the NFL at your own risk.

 

And I'm guessing if it's another pro league, billionaire boosters are going to be less likely to donate money for new facilities.  If it's all profit-based, let the team turn a profit.

 

As employees, can they be laid off if the team runs into problems?  Can they be fired for non-performance?  Traded?  (I wonder who might want Butterfield for a huge D-lineman?)  Do they get workman's comp if injured?  Does OSHA get involved and regulate equipment and practices?  Can they now be required to work full-time year-round, eight hours/five days a week?  Do they get the same medical coverage that other school employees get with co-pays and deductibles, rather than all their specialized medical attention?  (Yeah, you blew your MCL - you're authorized for ten physical therapy appointments.)  Maybe the same travel perks (Yes, a direct flight on the team charter would be great, but we booked you to Gainesville through Dallas and Orlando - oh, and you're in a middle seat next to the lavatory...here's your bag of peanuts.)   If they're not required to attend classes, any kid with an F average can play for Stanford or Notre Dame.  At that point, why does a team need to be associated with a school at all?

 

Then how long will it be until "Alabama" is disassociated entirely from the University of Alabama?  Or until a group of owners wants a team in Portland to compete against Oregon and Washington and doesn't even bother to associate with a university?  How long until Oregon alumni no longer follow the Ducks because the team is associated with their alma mater?

 

This could go in so, so many ugly directions.

 

One thing I know:  I would rather be an athlete getting a free education, all the training table food I can eat, regular physical therapy, specialist doctors, charter flights, and all the other perks they receive, than be the equivalent of a $50k-a-year mid-level employee at a university.

Kurt, I see as a minor league that will be supported by the NFL? 32 Super League teams. Each team sponsored by an NFL team. The 32 schools assign everything to do with football to the NFL. There is a HS draft for players who want to be paid to play. These players join the NFL union.

 

The NFL pays the licensor schools a fixed fee or perhaps, a fee coupled with some sort of 'kicker?' The players will not be students. The players will be athletes. Players will be employees of the the NFL or the employees of the sponsoring NFL team. Transfers, salary structure, etc. will be governed by the terms and conditions negotiated between the NFL and the players. 

 

Will Stanford, Northwestern, Duke, Notre Dame want any part of 'this?' Probably not. But I can see every SEC team sans Vanderbilt perhaps, going for 'this. I can see OK ST, TX Tech, Houston, Cincinnati, UCF and others going for 'this."  I don't believe the top administrators at Cal, Stanford and UCLA for example, would be the least bit upset in being a member of the 2nd Ivy League. The Ivy League sends its basketball and hockey champions to the NCAA post-season tournament.

 

If invited, Ivy school teams, such as golf, softball and baseball teams, can participate in NCAA post season events. Football is the odd sport out. There is no post-season football for Ivy League teams. Ivy athletes who participate in Olympic sports can compete as individuals by qualifying for NCAA sponsored post season events.

 

No Ivy school athlete is on athletic scholarship but sports prowess does help land academic scholarships and Pell grants. (In some respects West Point, Annapolis and Air Force Academy student-athletes are somewhat professional in that all students are active members of the military and are paid as such.)

 

The NFL needs an intermediate level between high school and the NFL. For decades the NFL has been a college football 'free rider.' This has been the case also for the NBA but not for MLB that, of course, has minor league affiliates. The colleges that participate in the football Super League will be equivalent in many respects, to minor league baseball players. Of course, the NFL free of any college affiliation, could establish its own minor league with the NFL stadiums being used for play. 

 

All of the questions you ask are spot on. How many institutions of higher learning will want to deal with any of 'this?' Thus, my point above that the plaintiffs in this law suit may well win the battle but lose the war? 

[Jon Joseph]

On 2/9/2022 at 1:20 PM, Just Ducky said:

When lawyers get involved it will end up costing more than the university’s can bear. It’s not like they can actually afford this scam. There will be no college World Series and that to me alone would be a travesty.

I think there will be a college world series but none of the players will be on athletic scholarships. Today, Ivy League teams if they qualify (and they don't) can be invited to and play in the post season. The only Ivy sport that is not allowed to play in the post season is football. From time to time, schools such as Penn and Princeton have reached the basketball final 4. I played hockey in D3 and we participated in post season playoffs. Linfield college has been a contender from time to time in the D3 football playoff.

 

Lawyers today are involved. Student athletes can have agents and financial advisers. Many the agent is also a lawyer.

[Jon Joseph]

On 2/8/2022 at 7:10 PM, Charles Fischer said:

We had better enjoy Softball, Baseball, Track and Womens Basketball while we can.  If this goes through...Oregon will not be able to afford 19 sports any longer.  

But the Ivy schools and a Stanford could afford do so because of the size of their endowments.

[Jon Joseph]

On 2/9/2022 at 11:48 AM, Charles Fischer said:

Then we better enjoy it and soak it up while we can!

I agree. But there is more 'stuff' to ignore day after day in the 'amateur sports' that is changing exponentially. 

Edited February 9, 2022 by Jon Joseph

[Jon Joseph]

I'd like to add that this is the expected outcome when you monetize football via the BCS and the BCS x 2 and the NCAA exists in part, because of all the money it makes off of the basketball tournament. Administrators and coaches may be upset by all of this 'stuff' but I don't see many of them turning down bigger pay checks as the result of CFB and CBB in particular being monetized. 

 

You reap what you sow. 

[Notalot]

CFB will become "NFL's G League"