Very Interesting Take on Quarterback Development

[Southern Duck]

Was listening to Sirius XM "PAC-12 Today" and they had an ASU football media guy on talking about Jayden Daniels and the portal and the thought he may zoom on over to Missouri for SEC exposure.... Then he got very informative....

 

He went on to talk about QB's and their overall high school development to college. In a nutshell he said.... Coaches are relying WAY TOO MUCH on agencies like Rivals and 247 to target "their best" QB's coming out of high school, based upon a pay for star systems that costs these players many a thousands of dollars a year to get rewarded within. Essentially pay for stars.

 

He went on further to say, that all the mindless drills these incredible athletes do to obtain these stars don't prepare them for college football at all. Such as, run around a bunch of cones and hit a wide open targets and even less important, 7 on 7 drills... These same highly ranked QB's, he said, most of them "Can't decipher a cover 2 or 3 defense nor digest a play book enough to run an offense fluidly". Then these QB's hit college and their new coaches only have 20 hours or so a week to coach them up but these kids simply don't have the college football "vernacular" to be effective at this level.

 

So many top QB's transfer out because they mentally aren't prepared for D-1 football but have been told they are 5 star good on a previous "pay for" grading system that's essentially irrelevant to their overall success at their new level. This would make great sense as to why Caleb Williams reunited with Riley at USC and Nix to Oregon with Dillingham. Coaches "his thinking" just simply don't have enough time to teach "their offenses" to kids that don't have the mental and physical gifts to absorb everything thrown at them at a D-1 level.

 

My thought, this is why many of our high star Duck QB's often go to smaller schools after us, to slow it down and be properly taught.

So when I think who will win the spring ball starting QB spot for the Ducks? I apply this info above to who already knows Dillingham's system and that looks like Nix. Now perhaps Ty and Butterfield will immerse themselves deeply into their playbooks like never before but they'll still need to be groomed within it on the field, which gives Nix a big head start.

 

There really is no replacing live reps and many of them for QB development. Don't you agree? Especially going against the one's on defense.

I thought it also very interesting that he went on to say that at Bama, "who replaces an OC every other year", Saban let's the new OC know that their offense isn't needed, they'll be running the Bama offense, already implemented. The players know it and that cuts down on the learning curve of a whole new language of offensive plays. Hmmm....

 

Now when you look at Oregon's best QB's over the last 20 years.... Herbert, Marcus, Adams, Thomas, Dixon, Harrington, Clemmons and on.... they had both the mental and physical to be effective at this level. However they also had offensive consistency to grow into the players they became at Oregon. Except for Herbert and Adams. The reason I think Herbert is an amazing pro is he was able to improve every year in college with different OC's and head coaches because his mental of the game was so high and his arm talent so great he could just adapt like he's done for the Charges now.

 

Vernon was simply just a freak of the pocket awareness nature and is the EXCEPTION to almost every QB transfer rule. Love that guy!

Perhaps what Oregon needs for it's next great QB is an OC that is talented and STAYS put for a whole QB cycle and can groom "his QB" mentally to match his natural physical gifts?

 

I'd also add that these big recruiting sites might want to up the mental challenge aspects of their QB star evaluations to match their physical ones? They'd really be doing their colleges a favor here in recruiting. These kids are paying for it anyway, might as well help them be realistic too as to what they need to really work on to be effective college players. Right? Otherwise, why should these kids families go broke paying for these services? Just my opinion......

[Darren Perkins]

Great stuff.

 

It blows my mind how even in the NFL, come draft time, teams are often more in love with the "athletic" qb who still needs to develop in the area of reading defenses and actually throwing a nice, catchable ball (i.e. throwing the football in general) over the less athletic guys who can read a D, make quick decisions, get the ball out, and make NFL level throws. 

 

I mean, afterall, Mac Jones was the 5th qb taken last year and he's no doubt the best of them all. I saw a piece on him on tv and his work ethic in studying the game is amazing. I'm pretty sure Lawrence will come along and be good, but the verdict is still out on the other three more "mobile" qb's, for sure. Poor Zach Wilson having to play for the Jets. 

 

Point being, for college, ya gotta' at least try get an idea of a player's acumen in the recruiting process and not just rely on the physical ability.  

[Charles Fischer]

On 2/19/2022 at 5:24 PM, Southern Duck said:

My thought, this is why many of our high star Duck QB's often go to smaller schools after us, to slow it down and be properly taught.

This is an outstanding post Southern Duck, and I thank you for sharing these thoughts.  It has been a long time since you posted, and would certainly want to encourage you to post again!

[Mike West]

Very interesting indeed.  When I look at the Spring Games around the country , I'm looking at the intangibles more than ever.

 

Can a QB throw the fade route effectively?  Will the OC show some of the his offense on third and Long situations?  

 

Can a LB find a receiver downfield?  Can a safety shut down a post route.  Does the defense seal the edge consistently?  

 

Coaches go vanilla, but they can't hide their talent level.  They can't mask a QB that can only throw twenty yards.  Or a running back's inability to outrun the defense at the second level. 

 

I agree the tournaments the high school kids go to don't reflect their actual abilities.  They won't see the same collection of talent they get at the tournaments, and frankly most OCs don't have much game themselves.  

 

The best way to help a QB succeed is to give defenses conflict plays.  A LB and CB must pick their poison.  Much like the zone read run game.  But it doesn't happen.  Too often, a frosh is seeing NFL caliber playbooks with so many formations to learn it takes months to get that simple aspect down 

 

Passing well involves moving defenders where you want them.  The back seven should be vacating areas trying to cover receivers.  I see far too many routes running straight into coverages.  I see Corners ten yards from the LOS, but the OC sends the WR right to him instead of calling a dog whistle audible to get that WR the ball in one step.  

 

So part of it is mental/cerebral.  Most of it to me is taking what they give you, and setting up for the adjustments.  Ummm, that would be sequential pass routes. Like a corner- post ( protected by a slot receiver running a seam route), or a post corner ( again, occupy the safety inside so the post corner is man to man.).  

 

There are so many facets to teach, but some of it is finding your QB's range of effectiveness first.  Braxton Burmeister will kill you inside. So you set him up by feigning deep outside routes to keep a defense honest. 

 

I could tell Georgia spent ample time getting Stetson Bennet massive reps in practice throwing deep and outside. His timing was much better, and he was throwing not thinking.  That was purely a month of muscle memory reps.  Michigan and Bama we're not expecting that ( neither was I quite honestly). 

 

So yes, most five star freshman aren't prepared.  How can a high school coach get him NFL ready?  Only the high profile high schools do that.  Combine that with college coaches throwing them forty formations, and sixty defensive  fronts and coverages to study, what do you think will happen?

 

A safety is supposed to cover half the deep side of the field.  So force him to pick a receiver to cover.  It's that simple.  Corners tell QBs within five yards how they're going to cover their "area"- whether it's zone or man coverage.  

 

Everyone thought AB couldn't throw deep.  He didn't practice it obviously.  Until the bowl game that is.  Once you know you can beat a corner, you take the safety out of the situation.  

 

I think most coordinators over think it.  Thus they force kids to as well.  Watch the last drive of this year's Super Bowl.  It was the QB and his best receiver all the way down the field.  They schemed everything for their best guy.  

 

That is like us saying to each other, FishDuck, get in the way of the linebackers so 30Duck can get open.

 

Fifty eight minutes of Rhodes Scholar ball succumbed to street ball.  Think about that the next time you see a QB struggle in an offense.

[Haywarduck]

Agree completely about the pay for stars route with QB's. This is why Herbert was a 3* but threw the prettiest ball from the get go. Herbert played basketball, and baseball, didn't even go to spring camp and lived in Eugene. I think there is more to a qb between the ears than the measurable the rating services tout. You almost need a guy who could pass the Seal Team test to be your qb. There are plenty of guys who can pass all the Seal Tests, but not The Test.

 

Great, great subject and hopefully the new Oregon coaching team will be more adept at picking qb's who have 'it.' 

[HappyToBeADuck]

Southern Duck thank you for this informative post......

 

This information is eye opening and I look forward to all the forum members responses.

 

Please post often and welcome. This is one hec of a article with a great deal of subject matter to ponder. 

[Charles Fischer]

On 2/19/2022 at 6:20 PM, Mike West said:

Passing well involves moving defenders where you want them.  The back seven should be vacating areas trying to cover receivers.  I see far too many routes running straight into coverages.  I see Corners ten yards from the LOS, but the OC sends the WR right to him instead of calling a dog whistle audible to get that WR the ball in one step.  

Mike, Mike, Mike,.....MIKE!

 

Good gosh you should be analysis articles for us again!

 

BTW....remember that epic game with USC in 2009, when Pete Carrol had to stop the Zone Read game and put an extra man in the box, thus left a slot receiver open and Chip had Masoli throw the ball to him immediately?  Oh, the memories of good coaching...

[30Duck]

Thanks for posting this, Southern Duck, as Darren Perkins pointed out earlier, the NFL Quarterback evaluating may be even shallower than is the college. Tom Brady was never "athletic", but he turned out okay. Sometimes it works out. Josh Allen was passed over by big programs, ended up at Wyoming. He was drafted on athleticism and potential by Buffalo and is now one of the top 5 o6 QB's in the NFL. 

[Wood Duck]

Brett Favre was a second round pick, only threw about a half dozen passes in high school, but he had "IT" and "IT" worked out pretty well for him.

"Street ball" ability can make up for a lot of other shortcomings - see Stetson Bennet.

[The Kamikaze Kid]

Great post! I’ve always been skeptical of the star system and USC has always been my best example of why.

 

You see it all the time in basketball with supposed five star one and dones. Anyone remember Troy Brown? Louis King? Bol Bol? These guys just create AAU highlight reels dunking on each other without ever developing any real game.

 

Give me a hungry Clubber Lang type three star with something to prove any day.

[Charles Fischer]

On 2/19/2022 at 7:06 PM, The Kamikaze Kid said:

Give me a hungry Clubber Lang type three star with something to prove any day.

"He's a killer....he'll knock you into tomorrow Rock...."

[The Kamikaze Kid]

On 2/19/2022 at 7:22 PM, Charles Fischer said:

"He's a killer....he'll knock you into tomorrow Rock...."

Casey Mathews nearly knocked Cam Newton into tomorrow, caused a fumble and nearly stole us a championship!

[David Marsh]

So this is an old article from 2015 and Southern Duck's post made me think of it and somehow I managed to find it. Basically in 2015 NFL teams were complaining that the NCAA does not produce enough viable quarterbacks for them. Back then there was a stronger argument that that wasn't the job of the NCAA to be the farm for the NFL, even though it kinda was, but with all this semi-pro stuff going on now in college football there is a stronger argument than ever than the NCAA is just a minor league for the NFL... but I digress.

 

The major premise of the article was that college QBs are trained to make the throws the plays and schemes are supposed to create rather than making the plays that are created due to the actual play unfolding. There is certainly a case for this as many of the most successful college quarterbacks are good at making the plays they are supposed to make and that's about it.

 

We have certainly seen this as Duck fans... I would say Anthony Brown is a prime example of the inability to read coverages and go through his progressions to make a play. How many times last season did we watch Brown just take off with his legs when he should have either stayed in the pocket a bit longer or extended the play behind the line of scrimmage to make a throw? Also... how many times did we see receivers running open and free and Brown make the worst throw?

 

This is something that isn't unique to just Brown but I would say the majority of quarterbacks in college can't go through their progressions and make the proper throws. I think even some of those big names with some those blue blood schools may not be able to go through their reads properly because they are so dependent on having high quality wide receivers who can get open due to their own massive athletic ability and the quarterback has to only make the prescribed throw.

 

Want to know what makes Herbert so good in the NFL? A major factor is that he didn't have those game breaking receivers at Oregon to make his job easy. He had to go through his reads and make the right throw. Now... Herbert had an NFL arm as a Freshman in college and this made it difficult for receivers to actually catch his throws sometimes because it was moving so fast but Herbert could read the defense and get the ball into tight windows when he needed to. It also didn't hurt that Herbert had to learn three different offenses in his four years at Oregon which really did mean he could process the information incredibly well. In that regard, Oregon did prepare Herbert for the NFL.

 

Now... my last though on this in this already too long post... I love what Dillingham is saying about his "pro-style offense" that is about getting mismatches and players in space. This is all about a quarterback making the correct reads and exploiting weaknesses. Now, having a quarterback that can do that is the next big question.

 

 

[Duck 1972]

The OL is also so important. If you don't have time to do your progressions. I believe that's the difference between the good ones and the great ones. The speed with which u can do it. Don't know if that can be taught.

[Mike West]

On 2/19/2022 at 9:13 PM, The Kamikaze Kid said:

Casey Mathews nearly knocked Cam Newton into tomorrow, caused a fumble and nearly stole us a championship!

And the refs called that obvious fumble an incomplete pass.  That, the interception that was " incomplete" and the uncalled tackle saved Auburn's hide that day.

 

Everybody knows we got robbed.  And ESecPN had the nerve to say they were the more physical team.

 

To my grave... Until God shows me Darren Thomas limping off the field the way Scam Newton did( and Thomas got hit hard also)... I will never concede Auburn was better or even close to as physical the way we beat up Newton ( anybody remember that alligator arm incomplete pass he threw because he was about to get hit again?).

 

We knocked the snot off Newton's face and they had the audacity to say the Tigers were more physical. 

 

We need to deliver some Clubber Lang love this year. Like the fiercest defense Chip has ever had in his career. 

[Haywarduck]

You could see what is wrong with the rating system by watching Brock Purdy against Tyler Shough. One guy looked like the prototypical NFL qb while standing still. The other looked like a dynamic college qb who can create, read a defense and make throws. The scouts loved the statue, and sold that to our program. The astute coach saw a player and built a program around him.  We need a coach who can, again, see a player, not just the statue of a great player.

 

Purdy and Shough are the perfect example because they played high school ball against each other. Purdy never lost to Shough, but that did nothing to quell the excitement over the measurables the scouts wanted to see, and knew they could sell to the top programs. Programs who are buying what scouts are selling rather than doing the work will continue to suffer. 

 

There are 5* players who we should be fighting for. This should never take the place of doing the hard work of figuring out who has the talent, potential and fire to lead a program.

[Jon Joseph]

Great post Southern, thank you. And great comments.

 

The entire enterprise seems to be so ephemeral today. These young men are touted from the time they are in junior high school as being the next great player at their position; certain to be a star in the NFL one day. The recruiting star system just encourages the belief that 'I am a 4/5* recruit and any program who signs me will be fortunate.'

 

Add in agents who want to make money off of a player's talent. Add in multi-million dollar coaches telling young men how great they will be if they only come to school X. Add in boosters paying unproven young men to come to school X. Then, when a player does not immediately start and thrive on the field, is it any wonder that Team is far less important than Me. And how much discipline can be instilled before a coach is run off for being a 'meanie?' How has Kansas played since running off Mark Mangino for this reason?

 

In fairness to the coaches, consider the restrictions on practice time and contact allowed in today's high school ball and in CFB. And do the adults in the room help? Do parents allow high school coaches to use 'tough love' when coaching? Do parents encourage their sons to tough it out and compete for the good of the team; or, to enter the portal for playing time and NIL money. But who can blame them when for a few dollars more, coaches and assistant coaches are off to greener pastures. To heck with the young men I recruited to play for good old State or U.

 

As to Mike West's great comment to this great take, are the majority of coaches 'coached-up' to the point where they can provide adequate coaching? I look at Mario and see a man who could recruit like a champion but on game day could not get his recruits to play up to the level of their ability and instead often played down to the level of the competition. Mario's OL coach was a hire of his best buddy and not a capable coach. After hiring Joe Moorhead, how much freedom was given Moorhead to coach the offense? Yet, with a 62-60 record as a HC, Mario is being paid $9M+ a year, more than many the HC in the NFL.

 

I note many the great references to Saban above. But the Bama O today is not the Bama O when Saban arrived in Tuscaloosa. Saban evolved. Bama plays a far difference O than before Kiffin arrived as the OC and the Bama D recruits a different style of players and plays a different D system than before the game went 'hurry-up.' Saban is an excellent CEO who hires the best people and delegates properly within the concept of 'the process' and within his system. And Saban also excels at the sine qua noon of CFB, he recruits great players who are willing to wait and learn before playing and today, he also takes the cream of the crop from the portal. (Unlike coaches in the Pac-12, Saban is aided and abetted by a solid network and a CFB media cartel. No team in the Pac-12 comes close to the money Bana spends on CFB.)

 

How many Saban's are there in CFB? Most of his protege's have failed as HCs with the notable exceptions of Jimbo and Kirby Smart. Two guys who like Saban, bring in the Jimmies and the Joes and like Saban, and have an 'unlimited' budget to do so. Even though star rankings may be off, the one constant in CFB is bringing in the best recruits and creating the best Blue Chip rosters. 

 

Again, what a great post and great comments. But I am not surprised in today's social and social media culture, that young men do not know how to play as Mike West so ably points out, and that team means little or nothing (sorry, but I am ticked off about Dye leaving and I do not give him a pass for abandoning his teammates.) 

[Jon Joseph]

On 2/20/2022 at 10:30 AM, Haywarduck said:

You could see what is wrong with the rating system by watching Brock Purdy against Tyler Shough. One guy looked like the prototypical NFL qb while standing still. The other looked like a dynamic college qb who can create, read a defense and make throws. The scouts loved the statue, and sold that to our program. The astute coach saw a player and built a program around him.  We need a coach who can, again, see a player, not just the statue of a great player.

 

Purdy and Shough are the perfect example because they played high school ball against each other. Purdy never lost to Shough, but that did nothing to quell the excitement over the measurables the scouts wanted to see, and knew they could sell to the top programs. Programs who are buying what scouts are selling rather than doing the work will continue to suffer. 

 

There are 5* players who we should be fighting for. This should never take the place of doing the hard work of figuring out who has the talent, potential and fire to lead a program.

 

Great take. But IMO, Purdy also benefited from far better coaching and playing in a far better system.

[Jon Joseph]

On 2/20/2022 at 10:22 AM, Mike West said:

And the refs called that obvious fumble an incomplete pass.  That, the interception that was " incomplete" and the uncalled tackle saved Auburn's hide that day.

 

Everybody knows we got robbed.  And ESecPN had the nerve to say they were the more physical team.

 

To my grave... Until God shows me Darin Thomas limping off the field the way Scam Newton did( and Thomas got hit hard also)... I will never concede Auburn was better or even close to as physical the way we beat up Newton ( anybody remember that alligator arm incomplete pass he threw because he was about to get hit again?).

 

We knocked the snot off Newton's face and they had the audacity to say the Tigers were more physical. 

 

We need to deliver some Cluber Lane love this year. Like the fiercest defense Chip has ever had in his career. 

IMO, I'll never forgive Chip for his stubborn play calling. Running into a formidable D line instead of using the passing game which was lighting up an 'old-fashioned' SEC pass D.

[Jon Joseph]

On 2/20/2022 at 8:32 AM, Duck 1972 said:

The OL is also so important. If you don't have time to do your progressions. I believe that's the difference between the good ones and the great ones. The speed with which u can do it. Don't know if that can be taught.

And no position group is affected more by reduced practice time than is the OL.

[DUCKED]

On 2/19/2022 at 5:24 PM, Southern Duck said:

Was listening to Sirius XM "PAC-12 Today" and they had an ASU football media guy on talking about Jayden Daniels and the portal and the thought he may zoom on over to Missouri for SEC exposure.... Then he got very informative....

 

He went on to talk about QB's and their overall high school development to college. In a nutshell he said.... Coaches are relying WAY TOO MUCH on agencies like Rivals and 247 to target "their best" QB's coming out of high school, based upon a pay for star systems that costs these players many a thousands of dollars a year to get rewarded within. Essentially pay for stars.

 

He went on further to say, that all the mindless drills these incredible athletes do to obtain these stars don't prepare them for college football at all. Such as, run around a bunch of cones and hit a wide open targets and even less important, 7 on 7 drills... These same highly ranked QB's, he said, most of them "Can't decipher a cover 2 or 3 defense nor digest a play book enough to run an offense fluidly". Then these QB's hit college and their new coaches only have 20 hours or so a week to coach them up but these kids simply don't have the college football "vernacular" to be effective at this level.

 

So many top QB's transfer out because they mentally aren't prepared for D-1 football but have been told they are 5 star good on a previous "pay for" grading system that's essentially irrelevant to their overall success at their new level. This would make great sense as to why Caleb Williams reunited with Riley at USC and Nix to Oregon with Dillingham. Coaches "his thinking" just simply don't have enough time to teach "their offenses" to kids that don't have the mental and physical gifts to absorb everything thrown at them at a D-1 level.

 

My thought, this is why many of our high star Duck QB's often go to smaller schools after us, to slow it down and be properly taught.

So when I think who will win the spring ball starting QB spot for the Ducks? I apply this info above to who already knows Dillingham's system and that looks like Nix. Now perhaps Ty and Butterfield will immerse themselves deeply into their playbooks like never before but they'll still need to be groomed within it on the field, which gives Nix a big head start.

 

There really is no replacing live reps and many of them for QB development. Don't you agree? Especially going against the one's on defense.

I thought it also very interesting that he went on to say that at Bama, "who replaces an OC every other year", Saban let's the new OC know that their offense isn't needed, they'll be running the Bama offense, already implemented. The players know it and that cuts down on the learning curve of a whole new language of offensive plays. Hmmm....

 

Now when you look at Oregon's best QB's over the last 20 years.... Herbert, Marcus, Adams, Thomas, Dixon, Harrington, Clemmons and on.... they had both the mental and physical to be effective at this level. However they also had offensive consistency to grow into the players they became at Oregon. Except for Herbert and Adams. The reason I think Herbert is an amazing pro is he was able to improve every year in college with different OC's and head coaches because his mental of the game was so high and his arm talent so great he could just adapt like he's done for the Charges now.

 

Vernon was simply just a freak of the pocket awareness nature and is the EXCEPTION to almost every QB transfer rule. Love that guy!

Perhaps what Oregon needs for it's next great QB is an OC that is talented and STAYS put for a whole QB cycle and can groom "his QB" mentally to match his natural physical gifts?

 

I'd also add that these big recruiting sites might want to up the mental challenge aspects of their QB star evaluations to match their physical ones? They'd really be doing their colleges a favor here in recruiting. These kids are paying for it anyway, might as well help them be realistic too as to what they need to really work on to be effective college players. Right? Otherwise, why should these kids families go broke paying for these services? Just my opinion......

Too many great points to mention. Thanks for posting.

 

 

[Southern Duck]

Technology may save the  day here "one day" when accessing high school QB's to the next level.  My thought, "maybe"  timing/ processing sensors on the QB helmets in these pay for camps. It will measure the speed and reaction time it takes QB's to deliver a play in different football settings. We'll see..   The Latin for me here is a great QB must be able to see the field as a "concept 1st" then break it down surgically, with pace and find the play within the movement of the defensive chaos, right?  What separated Marcus, Vernon, Herbert from Shough, Butterfield or Mahalak might be the half a second quicker reaction/ mental processing speed to go along with the arm talent and feel they already have.

 

Oregon as I've mentioned before can't afford to miss on 3 QB's in 3 different classes due to a D-1 growth spurt at a speed these kids just can't figure out.  Whatever the rating camps can do to aid in this intangible area would be greatly appreciated by the universities and in the long run, by the players too.  Who want to be a 5 star flop in college?  These kids families shovel big money for their kids to be seen and developed today.  The mental of this game needs to be as honest in assessment as the worship for their physical gifts. 

 

I guess that's what I'm taking away from all of this.... 

 

[WiseKwacker]

Wonderful post, Southern Duck. Thanks for sharing.

[toketeeman]

On 2/19/2022 at 10:12 PM, David Marsh said:

. . . Oregon did prepare Herbert for the NFL. . . .

 

Yes, exactly. The crime committed at Oregon was that that the incompetent coaches at Oregon had not a clue of the incredible talent and mental brilliance Herbert already had then. Even football-ignorant I could see that Herbert's Duck receivers were dropping passes left and right not because the passes were bad or the receivers were bad - but because his passes were hitting again and again their hands, chest, helmet at 60+ mph . . .

[HappyToBeADuck]

This has been an eye opening thread and again thanks Southern Duck and all the posters. Great stuff....

 

Makes me wonder or question:

 

Are TT and JB over rated? Do they have the mental acumen to learn and execute the new offense? Or were they not given enough real time opportunities?

 

Did MC and his staff teach these young men? Did they recognize the ceiling of the QB's talent? Or was it easier or safer to stick with AB? Were the coaches even capable or willing to adapt to their QB's abilities?

 

Most important:

 

Can Coach Lanning and his staff recognize then develop the talents TT and JB possess?

 

Can the Ducks put in place an offensive scheme that players will adapt to. Keep it simple, continues and the main staple. Just like Saban at Bama .......

 

[LADuck]

That is really a good post as to athletes feeling the pressure to go to certain camps or coaches to get the higher recruitment rating. It is like the baseball parents that FLY across the country to go to "elite" tournaments with 11 year olds! When my son was playing I asked a friend of mine who is a ex D1 player and local high school coach what he thought about these travel leagues. He said it was crazy and that if your son has top talent in high school people are going to find them ... especially when you live in Southern California!

 

The head scratcher thing about travel sports is if the kids just played in their local areas like some of us used to there would be plenty of competition. Not sure if youth football has got like this but I know hockey has national rankings for 10 year old and under teams!!! The world has gone insane.

 

[Duck 1972]

I call it "specialization". The bigger devolving into the smaller. Happens all the time with us humans. Weither for better or worse, sometimes yes sometimes no.

[Duck 1972]

On 2/20/2022 at 4:08 PM, HappyToBeADuck said:

This has been an eye opening thread and again thanks Southern Duck and all the posters. Great stuff....

 

Makes me wonder or question:

 

Are TT and JB over rated? Do they have the mental acumen to learn and execute the new offense? Or were they not given enough real time opportunities?

 

Did MC and his staff teach these young men? Did they recognize the ceiling of the QB's talent? Or was it easier or safer to stick with AB? Were the coaches even capable or willing to adapt to their QB's abilities?

 

Most important:

 

Can Coach Lanning and his staff recognize then develop the talents TT and JB possess?

 

Can the Ducks put in place an offensive scheme that players will adapt to. Keep it simple, continues and the main staple. Just like Saban at Bama .......

 

Remember you can count on your hand how many true frosh QBs start a game in college. The transition from HS to CFB is tremendous no matter how much talent you are supposed to have.

 

And just like any teenagers you have those that are willing to wait for their time and those that want it now. Out of this group u will have many who can't hit a curve, late bloomers and the best.

 

In the end it's all a crap shoot anyway.

[Viking Duck]

I will join in the chorus of 'great post!' I don't feel I have enough expertise to speak to a lot of that, but it does match my general impressions.

 

I think I've made that point before on this forum regarding the 'miss' rate of NFL quarterbacks.

 

When real experts whose entire well-paid jobs (the people evaluating talent for the NFL) miss on their predictions for so many quarterbacks, all of whom have many hours of tape in college to evaluate in addition to the combine and physical tests...

 

... it's not surprising that the high school rating 'racket' has a lot of misses too. One reason I felt that 'wait and see' was good advice for TT, rather than clamoring for him to start the first game he was eligible for.

 

In most facets of life, there is nothing wrong with spending a few years honing your craft behind a more experienced technician. Of course, we all want to have that exceptional youth who can jump to the front of the line even over a competent QB, but those are few and far between in college football.

 

Sometimes the athletes who make it to the professional ranks are the ones who have the 'resilience' to stick with a difficult situation and master it. I feel like that is often lost in the current football culture.

[Mike West]

On 2/20/2022 at 1:25 PM, toketeeman said:

Yes, exactly. The crime committed at Oregon was that that the incompetent coaches at Oregon had not a clue of the incredible talent and mental brilliance Herbert already had then. Even football-ignorant I could see that Herbert's Duck receivers were dropping passes left and right not because the passes were bad or the receivers were bad - but because his passes were hitting again and again their hands, chest, helmet at 60+ mph . . .

 

No no no.

 

They just dropped those passes.  More than fifty drops is not a QB problem.  That is lack of focus.  

 

Review the tape.  Those were not five thousand mile an hour passes.  They were catchable passes.  they lost six games, and a solid three were due to to those drops.

 

Furthermore, Herbert was hitting wide open guys.  Not in traffic, truck sized wide open guys.  There were thousands of complaints about poor play calling.  Well fifty dropped passes tells me not only were the plays very good, so was the coaching.

 

I'd like a very solid, evidence backed explanation on how fifty guys that were not only wide open , but the so called miscoached QB delivered the ball in the bread basket to said WIDE OPEN WRs was evidence Herbert wasn't getting developed.

 

And FYI, JH throws the same type of passes using the same footwork in the NFL as he did in college- just look at his highlights reels).

 

It is hard to prove without showing some bias, because it takes hours of research. But JH's NFL highlights look like his college highlights.  The TD throw on the run in the UW game to Jaylen Redd ( which by the way WAS sixty miles an hour) look no different that his deep throws to Keenan Allen.  Even the way he eludes sacks and runs for yardage look the same.  

 

Look at the Nebraska game.  Those were sixty mile an hour throws.  So I completely disagree.  Execution was more of a problem than his coaching ( my evidence- fifty dropped passes compared to the same type of passes the year before that weren't dropped).  

 

People are going to disagree with this, but Arroyo and the Snake unleashed JH better than Chip  and Helfrich unleashed their QBs, and Fifty points a game backs that up.  And how is it JH is the best modern QB  Oregon has had in the NFL?  He didn't do it on natural talent alone ( read 50 points a game with a highlight reel that year that looks exactly like his NFL highlights).  

[Jon Joseph]

On 2/20/2022 at 10:21 PM, Mike West said:

 

No no no.

 

They just dropped those passes.  More than fifty drops is not a QB problem.  That is lack of focus.  

 

Review the tape.  Those were not five thousand mile an hour passes.  They were catchable passes.  they lost six games, and a solid three were due to to those drops.

 

Furthermore, Herbert was hitting wide open guys.  Not in traffic, truck sized wide open guys.  There were thousands of complaints about poor play calling.  Well fifty dropped passes tells me not only were the plays very good, so was the coaching.

 

I'd like a very solid, evidence backed explanation on how fifty guys that were not only wide open , but the so called miscoached QB delivered the ball in the bread basket to said WIDE OPEN WRs was evidence Herbert wasn't getting developed.

 

And FYI, JH throws the same type of passes using the same footwork in the NFL as he did in college- just look at his highlights reels).

 

It is hard to prove without showing some bias, because it takes hours of research. But JH's NFL highlights look like his college highlights.  The TD throw on the run in the UW game to Jaylen Redd ( which by the way WAS sixty miles an hour) look no different that his deep throws to Keenan Allen.  Even the way he eludes sacks and runs for yardage look the same.  

 

Look at the Nebraska game.  Those were sixty mile an hour throws.  So I completely disagree.  Execution was more of a problem than his coaching ( my evidence- fifty dropped passes compared to the same type of passes the year before that weren't dropped).  

 

People are going to disagree with this, but Arroyo and the Snake unleashed JH better than Chip  and Helfrich unleashed their QBs, and Fifty points a game backs that up.  And how is it JH is the best modern QB  Oregon has had in the NFL?  He didn't do it on natural talent alone ( read 50 points a game with a highlight reel that year that looks exactly like his NFL highlights).  

STOP unleashing the LOGIC! Kidding. Love your takes my friend.

[Duck 1972]

Logic over emotion. IMHO Go figure!

[Haywarduck]

NFL receivers drop Justin's passes, much like they did at Oregon, but at a lower rate. Justin also came on campus with talent which just needed to opportunity to grow into NFL skill level. Justin was like Josh Allen, a multi-sport athlete who didn't go to the camps, play football year round. Both of these guys should be studied by recruiters and scouts to figure out what they have been and continue to miss on qb recruiting, evaluation.

 

[Duck 1972]

Hayward I believe you nailed it with the observation that they didn't go to camps, 7 on7 or specialized just on FB, thus were not seen and went unnoticed. Entirely understandable.

[Jon Joseph]

On 2/21/2022 at 11:52 AM, Duck 1972 said:

Hayward I believe you nailed it with the observation that they didn't go to camps, 7 on7 or specialized just on FB, thus were not seen and went unnoticed. Entirely understandable.

And does specializing help? Mahomes among other top NFL QBs, played baseball. It wasn't football 24/7.