sad BIG12 fan No. 1 Share Posted June 27, 2022 PAC12 should kill the BIG12 now by adding Oklahoma State, Texas Tech, Kansas & Houston. If Kliavkoff could convince the PAC12 presidents to invite these programs is would kill the BIG12 and solidify the P4. By adding these schools the conference could expand the PAC12 footprint all the way to Kansas City & Houston. Why these 4 programs. Simply put they are by far the 3 most popular fans bases in the BIG12. Yes they are not TEXAS or Oklahoma. But at the same time they are not Boise St, Fresno St, Hawaii, Wyoming, either. Kansas basketball is must watch TV, with a national following. Texas Tech is by far the 3rd most popular university in Texas, and the 2nd largest alumni base in DFW. University of Houston is the fastest growing university in Texas but also the fastest growing city in Texas with over 2.5 million people. By adding Kansas, Tech & Houston along with Arizona & UCLA pac12 basketball would be must watch TV. Football would improve as well. Obviously Kansas would be the outlier. Below are just a few random facts. All are Tier 1 universities Kansas is Tier 1 & AAU State Population Texas: over 30 Million Oklahoma: 4 Million Kanas (Kansas City): 3 Million/Missouri: 6 Million. As you know Lawrence is within 20 Miles of Kansas City. And the vast majority of College sports fans in Kansas City are University of Kansas fans not Missouri fans. Student Size Oklahoma St: 26,000 Texas Tech: 41,000. Kansas: 29,000 Houston: 45,000 Endowments: Kansas: 1.8Billion Texas Tech: 1.6Billion OSU: 1.3 Billion Houston: 1.0billion Potential year rivalry games vs SEC. Big TV money for the Pac12. OSU vs Oklahoma Kansas vs Missouri Tech vs Texas 2 1 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Fischer Administrator No. 2 Share Posted June 27, 2022 A Red Raider! Great points, and welcome to this forum. Do post your thoughts often, although this was a great start. You make a good case... Mr. FishDuck Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kirklandduck Moderator No. 3 Share Posted June 27, 2022 (edited) On 6/27/2022 at 12:05 PM, sad BIG12 fan said: PAC12 should kill the BIG12 now by adding Oklahoma State, Texas Tech, Kansas & Houston. If Kliavkoff could convince the PAC12 presidents to invite these programs is would kill the BIG12 and solidify the P4. By adding these schools the conference could expand the PAC12 footprint all the way to Kansas City & Houston. Why these 4 programs. Simply put they are by far the 3 most popular fans bases in the BIG12. Yes they are not TEXAS or Oklahoma. But at the same time they are not Boise St, Fresno St, Hawaii, Wyoming, either. Kansas basketball is must watch TV, with a national following. Texas Tech is by far the 3rd most popular university in Texas, and the 2nd largest alumni base in DFW. University of Houston is the fastest growing university in Texas but also the fastest growing city in Texas with over 2.5 million people. By adding Kansas, Tech & Houston along with Arizona & UCLA pac12 basketball would be must watch TV. Football would improve as well. Obviously Kansas would be the outlier. Below are just a few random facts. All are Tier 1 universities Kansas is Tier 1 & AAU State Population Texas: over 30 Million Oklahoma: 4 Million Kanas (Kansas City): 3 Million/Missouri: 6 Million. As you know Lawrence is within 20 Miles of Kansas City. And the vast majority of College sports fans in Kansas City are University of Kansas fans not Missouri fans. Student Size Oklahoma St: 26,000 Texas Tech: 41,000. Kansas: 29,000 Houston: 45,000 Endowments: Kansas: 1.8Billion Texas Tech: 1.6Billion OSU: 1.3 Billion Houston: 1.0billion Potential year rivalry games vs SEC. Big TV money for the Pac12. OSU vs Oklahoma Kansas vs Missouri Tech vs Texas Welcome to the forums! I agree with what you're saying and advocated for taking in some of those teams rather than the "alliance" that the Pac12 formed with the ACC and Big10. Simply put, the media exposure and recruiting footprint drastically expands for the Pac12 with those teams. Can you imagine Oregon going to Houston/Lubbock every other year and vice versa? Think of all the eyeballs that would be on Oregon from that recruiting area. Before anyone thinks about the distance, LA --> Houston is about 1548 miles. LA --> Seattle is 1137 miles. So from a plane flight standpoint, you're really only adding an hour or two...less for the mountain zone teams. Re-arrange the North and South divisions with each team visiting the other division once a year and it's definitely a feasible thing. Edited June 27, 2022 by kirklandduck 1 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orebcker No. 4 Share Posted June 27, 2022 No offense to Red Raider fans but I would consider subbing Baylor in place of Tech. Baylor is a more attractive opponent (FB, mens /womens bball) and is closer to DFW 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Marsh No. 5 Share Posted June 27, 2022 Though I would think it would be nice to have the PAC absorb the big-12 I sorta doubt that is going to happen. Though doing a big move and adding basically a whole other conference would in some ways make more sense because it would enable the georgaphy to work better for scheduling and a good chunk of games. I wrote about how the Pac-12 is geographically isolated last week. Here's the article for those who haven't read it. If you disagree with my assessment I take no offense and would love the conversation. The Pac-12 is Geographically Isolated From the Rest of the College... FISHDUCK.COM Recently in a John Canzano Mailbag article, he was asked whether or not the Pac-12 should consider... Enjoy. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duck 1972 No. 6 Share Posted June 27, 2022 I thought the distance would be a problem but as Kirkland pointed out it's not that drastic. Now the only problem I see is time zone? Being in the Central time zone those schools are all 2 hours ahead of us. That throws an unfair obstacle for us on the west coast playing away games. It's bad enough in ooc. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kirklandduck Moderator No. 7 Share Posted June 27, 2022 On 6/27/2022 at 4:03 PM, Duck 1972 said: I thought the distance would be a problem but as Kirkland pointed out it's not that drastic. Now the only problem I see is time zone? Being in the Central time zone those schools are all 2 hours ahead of us. That throws an unfair obstacle for us on the west coast playing away games. It's bad enough in ooc. That's not that bad to me. If they had a 12pm/1pm kickoff in Houston that would be 10am or 11am for us...not horrendous and something definitely manageable for a Saturday. I'll trade a slightly earlier game time for all that recruiting benefit in the Southeast any day of the week! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duck 1972 No. 8 Share Posted June 27, 2022 You don't play midday games in Houston unless they have an indoor stadium which I don't believe they have. Again climate would be a factor. We already have to play in so many different climates. Easier for them to adjust to us than we to them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drake Moderator No. 9 Share Posted June 28, 2022 Compelling thoughts on Big 12 teams. TV revenue definitely drives the bus. Any expansion needs to be a win/win situation for all involved. However, I would have a team of analysts work through the numbers and look at best/worst case scenarios to see who and what could make sense. Last thing needed is a diluted pool of revenue that generates less money for everyone involved. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DazeNconfused No. 10 Share Posted June 28, 2022 Nice topic and post. Super conferences or a Open division of 40 teams is coming I think Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duckhart No. 11 Share Posted June 28, 2022 Dont forget Baylor! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
1Ducker1 No. 12 Share Posted June 28, 2022 I think we have to make the PAC more popular in California and quite frankly Oregon and Washington too before wo go trying to get a super conference going. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HappyToBeADuck No. 13 Share Posted June 28, 2022 sad big12 fan........ Welcome to the forum and please post often. Many on this forum have experienced a personal mini-nuclear meltdown over the pac 12 not expanding into Texas. There are many pros and cons about your expansion thoughts. I am strictly a pros kind of person, so here goes. I really like your 4 choices but i would add Baylor to the mix. Those 5 schools could form their own pod/division. They would travel no more than they do now amongst themselves. Their 3 OOC games could be played in the midwest and a toe dip eastward. That leaves 5 more PAC 17 games to schedule. Put AZ, ASU, Colorado and Utah in another POD and play at least three games against those 3. Again minimal travel. Then play one game annually against the Cal, Stanford, UCLA and USC POD and one game annually against the NW POD. Alternate home and away games. Basically the schedule can be fixed or adjusted so you would have just one long trip east or west each year. Or do like the NFL and each year you play all the teams from a particular division or POD. If we can travel to Columbus or Atlanta then travel from Eugene to Lubbock or Houston or vice versus is doable. What many people dont understand is if TT is playing Oregon, USC or Utah in a prime time slot then TV sets all across Texas will watch. Same with Houston or Baylor. More eyeballs equal more advertising dollars and more dollars for the schools athletic departments on the TV contract There are so many options and opportunities for games along with endless recruiting opportunities. How many Texas 4 and 5 stars would attend an Oregon-Houston or USC-Baylor game. Giving youngsters the in person, side line opportunity that is affordable. GEEZ........ Well i am going to come back to earth now. There is no room for dreamers who lack academic prowess in the PAC. Thanks sad big 12 fan for Allowing me a brief moment of hope for a better future filled with new conference members, players and fans. Gotta go. Time to take out the garbage........ Go Ducks......... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sad BIG12 fan Author No. 14 Share Posted June 28, 2022 Not that stadium size matters all that much but it is a strong indicator of fan support. Football stadium size. TECH: 60,454 OSU: 55,509 Kansas: 50,250 Baylor: 45,140 TCU: 45,000 Houston: 40,000 Basketball arenas Kansas: 16,300 TECH: 15,030 OSU: 13,611 Baylor: 10,347 TCU: 8,500 Houston: 7,100 Yes I will concede that geography matters, but it doesn't necessary correlate to fan support. TCU, SMU, RICE, for just a few schools who cant even fill their stadiums or arenas. This is why I hope the PAC12 would consider TECH, OSU & Kansas. These three schools have great fan support and are growing. Houston is a gamble, but I'm sure with P5 access they will rise to the occasion. If not Houston, BYU or Baylor would be great pick ups. Also it does bring back a few old rivalries, not big ones but rivalries nonetheless. OSU vs Colorado (Old BIG8) KU vs Colorado (Old BIG8) TECH vs Arizona (Border Conference) TECH vs Arizona St (Border Conference) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tandaian No. 15 Share Posted June 28, 2022 Hard pass on adding Big 12 teams. Pac 12 would never add WVU and adding TTU and OK St. only brings in the 6th and 7th largest fan base in the Pac 12. TCU, Baylor and Houston are non factors when it comes to TV contracts. They may reside in large cities, but those cities don't care about the team. Fanbase_Sizes-DRAFTv1.pdf - Google Drive DRIVE.GOOGLE.COM Big 12 Pac 12 Oregon 5.54 Mil USC 4.46 M Wash 2.46 M UCLA 2.35 M ASU 1.95 M WVU 1.84 Mil TTU 1.65 Mil OK ST 1.42 Mil Cal 1.14 M Utah 1.09 M Arizona 1.04 M BYU 1.03 Mil Colorado .95 M KSU .90 Mil KU .90 Mil Stanford .89 M WSU .85 M ISU .81 Mil TCU .80 Mil OSU .79 M UCF .78 Mil Bay .57 Mil Hou .47 Mil CIN .39 Mil 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hiphopfroggy No. 16 Share Posted June 28, 2022 (edited) TCU fan here. To me the best move for the Pac is to add OSU/TCU/TT/BU. Here are the TV #'s: First is from 2015-2019 The numbers next to each school indicate the average number of viewers per week from 2015–19. Streaming numbers are included when available. Conference championship games and bowl games are not included in these numbers. Games that do not have available data were counted as zero. Ohio State (5.19M) Alabama (5.09M) Michigan (4.18M) Notre Dame (3.61M) LSU (3.22M) Auburn (3.12M) Georgia (2.91M) Oklahoma (2.90M) Clemson (2.67M) Penn State (2.55M) Florida (2.46M) Wisconsin (2.27M) Texas (2.269M) Florida State (2.23M) Michigan State (2.20M) Southern Cal (1.98M) Texas A&M (1.851M) Tennessee (1.849M) Oklahoma State (1.64M) Mississippi (1.61M) Iowa (1.57M) Nebraska (1.51M) Miami (1.503M) TCU (1.495M) Stanford (1.43M) Oregon (1.34M) Arkansas (1.33M) Washington (1.32M) Mississippi State (1.31M) West Virginia (1.27M) Virginia Tech (1.26M) UCLA (1.25M) Louisville (1.22M) Indiana (1.17M) Baylor (1.12M) South Carolina (1.07M) Navy (1.01M) Texas Tech (921K) Washington State (909K) Northwestern (867K) Utah (856K) Army (825K) Minnesota (803K) Pittsburgh (781K) North Carolina (749K) Iowa State (747K) California (730K) BYU (714K) NC State (703K) Arizona State (695K) Syracuse (694K) Houston (689K) Kansas State (682K) Maryland (681K) Purdue (620K) Georgia Tech (615K) Missouri (611K) Colorado (610K) Virginia (592K) UCF (566K) Memphis (564K) Arizona (561K) Kentucky (484K) Boise State (476K) Vanderbilt (438K) Cincinnati (430K) Duke (410K) USF (407K) Boston College (403K) Illinois (401K) Wake Forest (398K) Temple (354K) Kansas (346K) Oregon State (295K) Rutgers (266K) Tulsa (265K) SMU (232K) Colorado State (130K) Fresno State (127K) Wyoming (126K) Air Force (121K) New Mexico (97K) Hawaii (94K) East Carolina (82K) Nevada (80K) San Diego State (63K) UNLV (55K) Tulane (42K) San Jose State (30K) With USC the only PAC 12 school averaging more CFB tv viewers than either OSU or TCU from 2015-2019, those two seem to be the obvious adds at 13 and 14, with Baylor and TT rounding out the 16. Next are the #'s from 2021 Ranking the most-watched college football programs in 2021 The numbers next to each school indicate the average number of viewers per week for a 12-week season. Streaming numbers are included when available. Games that do not have available data are counted as zero. Ohio State — 5.22M Michigan — 4.74M Alabama — 4.64M Penn State — 3.87M Georgia — 3.61M Oklahoma — 3.46M Auburn — 3.22M Michigan State — 2.89M Notre Dame — 2.84M Oregon — 2.57M Wisconsin — 2.41M Nebraska — 2.29M Texas — 2.26M Florida — 2.21M Arkansas — 2.03M LSU — 1.90M Texas A&M — 1.86M Mississippi — 1.81M Clemson — 1.74M Iowa — 1.64M Purdue — 1.63M Oklahoma State — 1.58M Tennessee — 1.51M Minnesota — 1.28M Florida State — 1.27M Indiana — 1.24M Iowa State — 1.219M Cincinnati — 1.216M UCLA — 1.18M Baylor — 1.16M Illinois — 1.13M Southern Cal — 1.11M Kentucky — 1.08M Navy — 1.039M Miami — 1.038M North Carolina — 1.032M Utah — 994K Washington — 985K Maryland — 971K West Virginia — 948K TCU — 907K BYU — 893K Mississippi State — 858K Army — 804K Texas Tech — 798K Stanford — 778K Arizona State — 739K Northwestern — 716K Kansas State — 636K Louisville — 616K Virginia — 611K South Carolina — 575K Pittsburgh — 550K Kansas — 540K Wake Forest — 526K NC State — 525K Boise State — 495K Rutgers — 488K Washington State — 483K Missouri — 462K Georgia Tech — 459K Virginia Tech — 447K UCF — 407K Colorado — 366K Tulsa — 358K Tulane — 356K Arizona — 337K Louisiana — 334K Oregon State — 321K South Florida — 303K East Carolina — 301K Air Force — 255K Appalachian State — 241K Houston — 232K Coastal Carolina — 223K California — 222K Syracuse — 219K Memphis — 193K Western Michigan — 171K SMU — 164K UAB — 163K Northern Illinois — 163K Boston College — 156K Hawaii — 139K Ohio — 130K Eastern Michigan — 122K Buffalo — 119K Kent State — 117K Temple — 112.7K Ball State — 112.6K Western Kentucky — 97K Utah State — 91K Akron — 90K Marshall — 85K Nevada — 78K Duke — 64K UTEP — 63K Colorado State — 59K San Jose State — 59K UTSA — 51.9K Georgia State — 51.7K ULM — 50K Fresno State — 45K Wyoming — 38K Vanderbilt — 37K San Diego State — 35K UNLV — 34K South Alabama — 26K New Mexico — 25K Only Oregon in the Pac had better TV ratings than OSU. OSU seems to be the clear pick for team #13. Of course they and Baylor were atop the Big12 and other than OSU and Oregon, only UCLA in the Pac had better ratings than Baylor last year. After USC, Washington and Utah comes TCU followed by TT. It seems like OSU/BU/TCU/TT would increase the TV ratings average of the Pac if added, with TT being the least valuable of the 4. Houston has worse ratings than Oregon State. https://medium.com/run-it-back-with-zach/which-college-football-programs-were-the-most-watched-in-2021-49ef4f315858 Edited June 28, 2022 by hiphopfroggy add link 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sad BIG12 fan Author No. 17 Share Posted June 28, 2022 I would have guessed 6 & 7th would be acceptable. That plus it opens up recruiting in the state of Texas. Also it expands the PAC12 TV network. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sad BIG12 fan Author No. 18 Share Posted June 28, 2022 Great point HipHopfroggy. Just want to point out TECH has been historically bad during 2015-2019. But with Joey McGuire I believe things are looking up. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Fischer Administrator No. 19 Share Posted June 28, 2022 This is great stuff from our new friends from the Big-12, and given us a ton to consider. Please check in and post often, as you are very welcome. 1 Mr. FishDuck Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quackerbacker No. 20 Share Posted June 28, 2022 We so screwed the pooch when we had the chance to add teams from the Big 12 when Texas and Oklahoma first announced their decision to move to the SEC. The PAC-12 presidents are stuck in the past and they blew it!! I don't know if we will ever get that opportunity again. I know staying put as the PAC-12 with all that is happening ain't going to cut it in the future. My hope is when the time comes and the opportunity presents itself in whatever form it comes, we (the Pac-12) don't crawl back into our shell and hide but jump this time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duck 1972 No. 21 Share Posted June 28, 2022 I don't see why it hurts us to stay at 12 teams. If Riley gets USC back and our league has 4 to 5 teams that continually are good with 2 great teams (us and SC), win the majority of our ooc games, get in the PO and win our bowl games most of the time our reputation will go up. This will cause our TV rights to be wanted. More money to go around. These other schools don't help us any better than standing pat. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hiphopfroggy No. 22 Share Posted June 29, 2022 On 6/28/2022 at 5:59 PM, Duck 1972 said: I don't see why it hurts us to stay at 12 teams. If Riley gets USC back and our league has 4 to 5 teams that continually are good with 2 great teams (us and SC), win the majority of our ooc games, get in the PO and win our bowl games most of the time our reputation will go up. This will cause our TV rights to be wanted. More money to go around. These other schools don't help us any better than standing pat. The reason is TV ratings. OSU/TCU/TT/BU would increase the TV ratings average of the Pac, thus increasing the value of a potential new TV contract. The other great thing about adding 4 schools to the Pac, for Pac schools and their fans, is the return to the original Pac 8. Ship the desert and mountain schools to the east division with the former Big 12 teams and voila, the original Pac 8 is back baby! Which is great for nostalgia but also to get annual games between USC and Oregon, and Washington. Those are big money games that the Pac currently leaves on the table 50% of the time. Adding 4 more teams to the Pac actually increases the # of games between original Pac schools. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Marsh No. 23 Share Posted June 29, 2022 On 6/29/2022 at 8:59 AM, hiphopfroggy said: Adding 4 more teams to the Pac actually increases the # of games between original Pac schools. This would be probably the only way is buy into more expansion to be honest. I do feel the expanded conference has ruined some of the rivalries. A Failed Fan Experience: Pac-12 Expansion Diminishes Rivalries FISHDUCK.COM Take a moment and think of this year's conference schedule and pick out the top three games you want to... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeotechDuck No. 24 Share Posted June 29, 2022 (edited) Houston is an interesting case, because Houston is a major TV market. Now that Houston is in a Power-5 conference, I am betting they will launch them up that list pretty quickly, especially if they have some immediate success. I guess we will find out when they officially start playing games in the Big-12. Edited June 29, 2022 by GeotechDuck Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sad BIG12 fan Author No. 25 Share Posted June 29, 2022 The issue with Houston is that they have a very small fan base. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DUCati855 Moderator No. 26 Share Posted June 29, 2022 While I am not opposed to expanding the Pac12... I'm also not opposed to jumping ship. Oregon needs to do what is right for Oregon. Schill and Mullens are smart enough to understand that the UO is getting screwed with the Pac12 profit sharing. I would think they would rather be dividing profits with other schools that actually have profits. Like it or not collage sports are about money. UO earns it... They might as well keep it. I know change is hard. But, all of these options require change. So, might as well study up on ALL the options and make an informed choice. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
idontrollonshobbas No. 27 Share Posted June 29, 2022 (edited) I realize that, if true at one point, it could be moot in the NEW WORLD ORDER of College Football, but hasn't the PAC-12 historically been opposed to allowing religious universities to join? So, Baylor and BYU, would not be considered, for example. Edited June 29, 2022 by idontrollonshobbas 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
